tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post526575736852378060..comments2024-03-27T20:48:39.389-04:00Comments on [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: The bittersweet reality of being adoptedLorraine Duskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-76973792424514447162011-03-01T11:21:18.493-05:002011-03-01T11:21:18.493-05:00The adoptees who pose a real problem are the ones ...The adoptees who pose a real problem are the ones who work to keep records closed. <br /><br />Passive, indifferent or fearful adoptees are not going to be won over by seeing the so-called "happy" adoptees who actively support open records and making contact with members of original family disparaged just because they aren't angst ridden. <br /><br />It is only going to turn them away.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-67628645378754207532011-02-27T12:46:15.496-05:002011-02-27T12:46:15.496-05:00FWIW, I was a "goody two-shoes" and don&...FWIW, I was a "goody two-shoes" and don't think it's an insult (although in my teens I might have). It perfectly describes the way I lived as a child and adolescent, very rule bound. I was worried that if I wasn't "perfect," I wouldn't be loved. I didn't drink, didn't smoke (with apologies to Adam Ant), and no one offered me drugs (marijuana or otherwise) until I was 24. This might be something to be proud of, I guess. I tried so very, very hard to be "perfect," which to me meant being bland and unoffensive to everyone else, not really myself. This meant, however, that I isolated myself since many people thought I would judge them for drinking, smoking, or doing anything considered ethically problematic.<br /><br />I might be mistaken, but I didn't think Robin or Joy was using "goody two-shoes" to refer to adoptees who have no issues as adults. I took it to mean a way of behaving that was a coping mechanism for some of us adoptees earlier in our lives. <br /><br />If you see it differently, fine.ms. marginaliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03854609171313401651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-2875694822902241142011-02-26T18:23:10.681-05:002011-02-26T18:23:10.681-05:00@Maryanne,
Using the term goody-two-shoes was not...@Maryanne,<br /><br />Using the term goody-two-shoes was not at all meant to be deliberately insulting. I said before I saw myself as a goody-two-shoes as a way of dealing with adoption (and I am not in the habit of insulting myself). There is a guy in my circle of friends who never swears and we refer to him as a goody-two-shoes. It is meant in a lighthearted and innocuous way. He laughs and is never offended. He knows we are not being mean-spirited or condescending. I have already apologized to those who were offended by my use of the term and don't think it is necessary to attribute motives (i.e. being deliberately insulting when I most certainly was not) to my comment.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-76353788214666353152011-02-26T16:56:52.362-05:002011-02-26T16:56:52.362-05:00"Goody two shoes" is an old playground i..."Goody two shoes" is an old playground insult. It has similar meaning to another slightly more adult insult, "Brown Nose."<br /><br />Sure, we have all been called worse, the issue is that it was deliberately insulting, not that anyone is going to faint from shock.<br /><br />For me "lifelong pain" does not cut it either, it is the "lifelong" part that has not been true for me. It was horrible for many years, the pain/grief of losing my son, now for me it is over because he is no longer lost. <br /><br />That is not true for a lot of mothers who have found rejection, tragedy, or a very damaged son or daughter. For some there is lifelong pain, for some the pain and grief eventually ends. For me, focusing on the present and future and not the past loss helped.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-46600292052578853422011-02-26T15:30:24.355-05:002011-02-26T15:30:24.355-05:00I totally agree with you Robin. I am sorry that p...I totally agree with you Robin. I am sorry that people struggle so much with the term goody-two-shoes. I can say in all honesty I have been called a lot worse quite often. <br /><br />And yet somehow, I struggle onward and upward keeping my dream alive, man. And oh yeah it is for the kids. Lol, people, they are like everywhere...joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15658928829424953809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-499961881095368002011-02-26T14:39:13.204-05:002011-02-26T14:39:13.204-05:00My 2 cents......
It seems there have been a lot o...My 2 cents......<br /><br />It seems there have been a lot of comments that focus on the word or phrase that someone uses. For example, I mentioned a fmother's lifelong grief and maybe lifelong pain would have been better. I know for myself that I am often in a hurry and just trying to get my comment in.<br /><br />Also, we are not in a court of law or defending a PhD thesis. I try to get the gist of what the writer is saying. For example when Maryanne asked if anyone felt they would be a BETTER person if adoption was not part of their life. It didn't bother me because I understood overall what she was asking. I think this nitpicking over semantics can become counterproductive.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-65242221826665611572011-02-26T11:38:12.089-05:002011-02-26T11:38:12.089-05:00I answered your question here Lorraine
http://camp...I answered your question here Lorraine<br />http://campbellscoup.blogspot.com/2011/02/since-you-asked.html<br /><br />I'd just like to add a couple of things addressing some comments directed toward me. I have never heard the term goody two shoes being used in a positive way and I didn't use the term "woundies" and wasn't the one saying adopted persons have difficulty in their relationships. Joy said her brother did because he is in denial about his adoption issues.Campbellhttp://campbellscoup.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-79938194954903070182011-02-25T12:49:12.507-05:002011-02-25T12:49:12.507-05:00OOps, that is "maryanne" not mary.
I am ...OOps, that is "maryanne" not mary.<br />I am not in real good shape if I can't sign my own name right.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-21607128071638298552011-02-25T06:58:07.931-05:002011-02-25T06:58:07.931-05:00Thanks for the words of sympathy about my cat. He ...Thanks for the words of sympathy about my cat. He went peacefully and his suffering is over, and the kindness of friends does help. Those of you who have pets of any kind know they do become a part of your family, even though they are adopted:-)I am totally in favor of pet adoption.marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-69852799477241354572011-02-24T22:27:33.587-05:002011-02-24T22:27:33.587-05:00Well, I would have never known the pain associated...Well, I would have never known the pain associated with having been given up.<br /><br />Of course, I don't know if in my very genetic essence staying in my biological family would have made me a "better" person.<br /><br />I do know that my family was deeply saddened by having to give me up - that they felt my absence all those years, even knowing it was for the best, even knowing it was the only way to keep me alive - I am grieved by that.<br /><br />That, in itself, is what troubles me most about adoption. When we reach the point of "Well, it's necessary, and it all worked out & we can't change the past, so really, what's so bad about it in the end?"Mei Linghttp://adoptionparadox.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-13130530721228785012011-02-24T20:30:23.467-05:002011-02-24T20:30:23.467-05:00Maryanne, I am so sorry about your caT. Pets are b...Maryanne, I am so sorry about your caT. Pets are beloved creatures, and Robin said, adoption in that case is good. I am glad your son is a comfort to you. <br /><br />My natural family hates cats with a passion, but I love both dogs and cats. I have a seventeen-year-old cat who has seen me through a lot of rough stuff. She has outlived two of my dogs! I cannot imagine life without her.ms. marginaliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03854609171313401651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-29581409402969793952011-02-24T18:22:37.803-05:002011-02-24T18:22:37.803-05:00@Maryanne,
I am so sorry about the loss of your be...@Maryanne,<br />I am so sorry about the loss of your beloved kitty. I was the only cat person in my a-family (though we all loved dogs). When I found my n-mother I learned that she was a cat lover, too. Glad this is bringing you closer to your son.<br />Pets are members of the family and when it comes to pets, adoption is a good thing.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-82255244384650932122011-02-24T12:38:43.497-05:002011-02-24T12:38:43.497-05:00Oh Maryanne, My sympathies about the cat. Losing a...Oh Maryanne, My sympathies about the cat. Losing a pet is very hard. And all of us here are pleased that you have Mike in your life, who is a cat person and understands.Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-35181949891817337112011-02-24T12:21:03.691-05:002011-02-24T12:21:03.691-05:00I have learned something from all who have answere...I have learned something from all who have answered my question. More replies are appreciated:-)<br /><br />Chris wrote:"Today, I believe we are a 'plus' in each others' lives, even in the difficult moments."<br /><br />I feel that way too, especially today. I am going to have to have one of my beloved kitties who is terminally ill put to sleep. My greatest support through this the past several days has been my son Mike, who really understands, having been through it and being a cat person. I truly feel we are a plus in each other's lives now, no matter what happened in the past.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-27542419390912121972011-02-24T09:27:28.237-05:002011-02-24T09:27:28.237-05:00I can't say I would have been a 'better...I can't say I would have been a 'better' person, but I surely do know I would have been 'different' simply by the absence of a lot of negative feelings about myself after surrender, that would negatively affect later choices in my life. And I have no doubt today (am in reunion 12 years), that the same would have held true for my 40+ daughter. Surrendering my baby for adoption, was not a plus in either of our lives. But I choose today..to live in today. Neither I nor my daughter can turn back the hands of time...what's done is done. Today, I believe we are a 'plus' in each others' lives, even in the difficult moments.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-88792781748186471472011-02-24T07:48:43.583-05:002011-02-24T07:48:43.583-05:00@2speakease, as a single adoptive parent to a goin...@2speakease, as a single adoptive parent to a going-on 14-year-old adopted from China, I really enjoyed your comment. Cultural and heritage issues have a way of puzzling me at times. As you say, what's probably most important, especially in the early years, is giving kids that total acceptance but also letting them control the process too. Total acceptance for who they are—that “you are one of us”— but also acknowledging that they have a whole other history to explore. People are deeply divided in the international adoption community about how to steer that process, what to do, how much, when . . . your remark about your own trajectory was interesting, though, because it sounds like your parents were positive enablers rather than controllers in either direction. Never dampening curiosity? Absolutely. I see my daughter following your pattern in that her notion of “being Chinese” deepens and widens the older she gets. And she gets more nuanced about it too as time goes on. Teased recently for living up to the stereotype of the brainy Asian with tiger parents she told me how she just laughed and told the kid, “I'm adopted, stupid.” (Um, they're 13 and talk like that.) <br /><br />I am very glad to see you here and hope you drop by again. You have a strong voice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-38521757972545593712011-02-23T23:57:43.282-05:002011-02-23T23:57:43.282-05:00I like to think that I would have had a happier li...I like to think that I would have had a happier life if my mother had kept me. I would have been around people who were more like me than my adoptive family. I would have seen myself mirrored in my mother and my grandfather and my uncle. I wouldn't have been the changeling who dropped from the sky. <br /><br />There is no guarantee of happiness, though. The only thing for sure is that my life would have been different and I wouldn't have been left to rot in the hospital with no caretaker. <br /><br />Unlike you, Maryanne, I think I would have been a healthier person, less plagued by demons--or at least not plagued from birth by anxiety and self-hatred.ms. marginaliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03854609171313401651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-68214479516643445292011-02-23T22:57:11.565-05:002011-02-23T22:57:11.565-05:00Lorraine wrote:Let me ask this, would you be a bet...Lorraine wrote:Let me ask this, would you be a better person if you had not relinquished your son?<br /><br />Maybe, probably happier any how, or maybe I would think of myself as a better person. Not much different in essence, nor is my son, at least that is my belief. I think we both would be pretty much as we are, but happier. Others may vary.<br /><br />Really, no "meta-message" intended, nor that any one was a worse person. Just take out the word "better" if it confuses or insults anyone, and stick with the rest of the question, which was indeed not meant to be argumentative.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-4192490022791290852011-02-23T21:36:11.556-05:002011-02-23T21:36:11.556-05:00Better person? I don't see how anyone can answ...Better person? I don't see how anyone can answer that. Would I be a different person if I had not given my daughter Jane up? <br /><br />Hell, yes. <br /><br />Would she have been a different person? <br /><br />Absolutely. <br /><br />But better? No one can answer that and though you are not being argumentative, asking if you would be a "better" person is not only unanswerable, but contains an meta-message, that the person being asked is somehow less than "better." <br /><br />Let me ask this, would you be a better person if you had not relinquished your son?Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-74694201468990592032011-02-23T19:17:58.126-05:002011-02-23T19:17:58.126-05:00Maryanne,
My quick answer is absolutely, no questi...Maryanne,<br />My quick answer is absolutely, no question. I did find that in reunion I had a much deeper, more familial connection with my first mother than I ever did with my a-mom. I definitely feel I would have been a happier, more peaceful person if I hadn't had all the adoption issues. I found that being given away was a very painful thing to deal with, and by some twisted logic I thought that I had ruined my first parents lives (I realized after reunion that they were the ones who made the choices that led to my relinquishment) so I struggled with some guilt, too. Adoption has been the negative undercurrent to my life. I feel that I would have been a more secure person if I had been raised in my own family. I would have liked fitting in with my family by looking like them and not having issues like having 2 other families somewhere out there that I didn't know, having no medical history and having family members who wouldn't accept me because I wasn't blood.<br /><br />Actually, I appreciate you asking. And for any adoptees who had a very different and more positive experience, I say God bless. I do not want to hear how my experience or my feelings about it are somehow wrong.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-50391899674530188202011-02-23T18:32:24.186-05:002011-02-23T18:32:24.186-05:00Quick question for Joy or other adoptees who feel ...Quick question for Joy or other adoptees who feel deeply damaged by adoption: do you believe that you would not have the emotional issues you have today had you been raised by your natural mother? Do you feel you would have been a different, better person? <br /><br />This is asked in all honesty, not to argue but to hear what you have to say and not comment on it.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-81127623632521971252011-02-23T18:15:53.351-05:002011-02-23T18:15:53.351-05:00Maryanne, I know you have excellent insights regar...Maryanne, I know you have excellent insights regarding adoption issues and I always look forward to your comments. I particularly liked the one related to life-long grief and I believe an entire post could be devoted to just this topic. Since the grief that accompanies adoption is inevitable, I think it would be helpful if people could figure out ways to ensure that it doesn't evolve into a life-long process. An antidote to my own personal grief as a firstmom who lost her child in the bse, I've found it helpful to devote time and energy to helping others and learning from them as well. I also recommend lots of reading from people who've overcome their own personal tragedies. I just ordered Scot Brown's new book, "Against All Odds: My Life of Hardship, Fast Breaks, and Second Chances."<br /><br />GailGailnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-35480701852939339732011-02-23T16:21:41.643-05:002011-02-23T16:21:41.643-05:00Maryanne wrote: "I know I was greatly moved w...Maryanne wrote: "I know I was greatly moved when I went to Ireland and met my Dad's relatives who still live on the farm my grandpop left from ."<br /><br />That paints such a powerful picture. I do feel that I share my AP's heritage and history. However, when I saw pictures of my bio-ancestors who wore born a hundred years before me and I looked just like them, THAT was a powerful connection!Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-8305731137872815032011-02-23T14:27:36.988-05:002011-02-23T14:27:36.988-05:00People are always on about these studies, we must...People are always on about these studies, we must conduct a study, that study isn't scientific enough, there could be other variables. Usually used as a weapon to dismiss people's experiences. <br /><br />The problem with comparing my outcome to my kept sibs is one we only share 1/2 the DNA, two my mother was significantly older it is so problematic, I mean another thing is what are the parameters around "turning out" who decides what the beneficial outcome is. People can and have been institutionalized for things that they shouldn't have, Janet Frame springs to mind. <br /><br />All of these studies are fuzzy, we are human beings and there will always be variables from diet, to ethnicity, to socioeconomic status, to religion. The whole Pascal, Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne comprend pas.<br /><br />It doesn't work, it reminds me of psychology class in college where they showed how if you take a puppy away from his mother he shows signs of distress. It was painful to watch the puppies being distressed to tell you what any six-year old could. <br /><br />Anecdotally I can tell you my son was not indifferent to caregivers in fact he somewhat enslaved me as an infant and he turned out better than I did comparing satisfaction with life, adjustment, etc. Him being raised by a mostly single young mom and me being raised by successful adoptive parents. <br /><br />All the child development experts that I was in contact with through my college, they taught Early Childhood development said, "the first six months of life are the most important, spoil him now and reap the rewards later" It worked for us. <br /><br />My point is social science is a soft science. The idea that we can control variables and outcomes in humans through external controls smacks of the middle of the last century which resulted in a lot of social abuses. Not only do I mean it is not predictive, it is not possible to determine all the sources. Why *does* Charlie Brown like the little red-haired girl? <br /><br />It is silly to speculate and abusive to tell adult adoptees that they are imagining it. <br /><br /><br />JoyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-5179586489477189512011-02-23T11:47:05.686-05:002011-02-23T11:47:05.686-05:00Dear Viktoria, thus far I have made only two comm...Dear Viktoria, thus far I have made only two comments about the study and the second one was in response to Jane, who had misunderstood what I meant. That is hardly "picking apart endlessly". This comment to you will be the third. Personally I do not see why anyone should have a problem with any respectful comment that relates to the OP, even if it is to take issue with it. <br /><br />I don't think my criticism was harsh. I think it was fair and realistic. By my reckoning, the best way to assess the impact of adoption on adoptees would be to make the comparison between a group of adopted kids and their kept peers (such as sibs, half-sibs and perhaps even first cousins). I believe that by not taking into account genetic relatedness between adopted children and their non adopted peers, the study misses its goal by a long shot. <br /><br />"But then how would you account for the disproportionate number of adoptees in mental health therapies, schools for troubled kids, in institutions? I suppose you would just rack it up to the superior educational level and income of adoptive parents? Right. I'm sorry, most therapists today do not buy that. " <br /> <br />I'm sorry, but your supposition is wrong. I don't just "rack it up" to the socio-economic status of adopters, although I am sure that plays into it. In response to your question, of course it's much more complicated than that. I believe a thorough study should include consideration factors like the example illustrated by your own experience, the adopted person having little in common with their adoptors. I believe a lack of congruence with the adoptive family can make self-actualization much more difficult for some adoptees, especially during the teen years. I would attribute this in part because of a lack of "mirroring" and partly because of temperamental differences as well as general outlook, abilities and interests. <br />But I don't see how a study that doesn't take first family characteristics into account, as well as the birth parents' life-style and life situation that might have influenced the child's development before birth -- and since the children involved in this study were all adopted before the age of two, whatever happened to them before they were adopted -- can have much to add that is new. If the study had made the comparison between teens adopted in infancy and their non-adopted biologically related peers, the results would be much have been much more robust. <br />Open adoption has been going on in the US since the early eighties, so even considering that some will have been closed, it should still be possible to conduct such a study, if only on a somewhat smaller scale.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com