tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post5364513310369930497..comments2024-03-27T20:48:39.389-04:00Comments on [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: What makes a mother? Lorraine Duskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-39190315845811567022015-05-08T09:20:34.481-04:002015-05-08T09:20:34.481-04:00Steve and Daniel, I'm really glad for your pos...Steve and Daniel, I'm really glad for your posts. Understanding the wider context in which adoption happens is imperative to understanding adoption. Cherrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-31781783716283211012015-05-07T14:51:13.446-04:002015-05-07T14:51:13.446-04:00It's disturbing to read the phrase "inste...It's disturbing to read the phrase "instead of making surrogacy illegal…" We would never say something like "instead of making slavery illegal…" I'm not sure how the exploitation of others for personal gain does not seem to be worth a discussion of ethics or morals. <br /><br />What has been intriguing to me as I've researched adoption these past 11 years or so (I am an adult adoptee rematriated to his place of birth) is how much it seems that as soon as surrogacy hits some matching price point compared to adoption, then adoption will be seen as passé, and thrown to the side: the "second choice" we know it to be.<br /><br />There's much to be said about the use of surrogacy within fascist societies, and how much its current practice maps onto this. The practice of surrogacy in Israel is doubly exploitative, since it is premised on shifting the population against a displaced and dispossessed people.<br /><br />An article I wrote for Dissident Voice, "Adoption, Surrogacy, and Birthright", might be of further interest:<br />http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/04/adoption-surrogacy-and-birthright/<br /><br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-78986306784921387662015-05-06T15:38:42.194-04:002015-05-06T15:38:42.194-04:00Those terms sound fine to me.Those terms sound fine to me.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-88363919190917871782015-05-06T14:28:42.669-04:002015-05-06T14:28:42.669-04:00My husband and i went thru IVF and we even tried h...My husband and i went thru IVF and we even tried having a baby with an egg donor. So I'm privy to some of the words used to sell the various options. Basically, they gotcha coming in, they gotcha going out, same amount. If you cannot carry a baby, then have your eggs extracted and have another woman carry the zygote cum baby for you - genetically it will always be your child. If your eggs are no longer viable, use a donor's, because, eggs are basically blank slates and it is the carrying of the child that shapes the personality of the baby so much more. DNA is simply raw material and nothing more. Those are the scripts. So the argument against one becomes an argument in favor of the other :). <br /><br />Love the Cyteen reference.Kaisanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-13229385337456381692015-05-06T08:12:24.781-04:002015-05-06T08:12:24.781-04:00I wonder what people think of the terms 'Mothe...I wonder what people think of the terms 'Mother of origin' and 'Mother by adoption'? Both of these feel quite respectful to me, but then I am seeing it all from my perspective.Cherrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-39713097618139494702015-05-05T16:37:36.227-04:002015-05-05T16:37:36.227-04:00Nick Loeb doesn't even blink when insisting th...Nick Loeb doesn't even blink when insisting that the eggs be implanted in a surrogate. It has clearly not occurred to him that there is another human being involved there, besides himself, Ms. Vergara or the future children. Mr. Loeb is not concerned with the surrogate's well-being, he simply wants her to exist in order to carry his babies to term.<br /><br />I am incredibly troubled by the exploitation of surrogate mothers. Places like India and Thailand are turning poor women into breeding mules. And many of these women grieve deeply for the children they are ultimately forced to part with.Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-11137188943363629822015-05-04T21:39:32.454-04:002015-05-04T21:39:32.454-04:00"I finally said that argument about her being..."I finally said that argument about her being demeaned was like the people who object to gay marriage because it demeans their straight marriage."<br /><br />Think that is a really good analogy. Never thought of it but I see the linkage totally. <br /><br />I like "original mother" because it has "origins" in it. But I call people what they want to be called. Jessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-56643116060852258392015-05-04T17:25:41.022-04:002015-05-04T17:25:41.022-04:00Yes, Jewish religion is matrilineal; if your mothe...Yes, Jewish religion is matrilineal; if your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish no matter who your father is. I am Catholic married to a Jew, my children are not considered Jewish and if they wanted to be, they would have to convert just like someone with no Jewish ancestry. All my kids are agnostics, although raised Catholic, and the two who are married married agnostic Christian girls, so the matter never came up.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-60097140323829519412015-05-04T15:47:11.944-04:002015-05-04T15:47:11.944-04:00Not too sure what you are hoping for, Cindy. The A...Not too sure what you are hoping for, Cindy. The Apocalypse and Last Judgement? If you are hoping for human nature to change and people not to seek profit where it can be made, or abuse power, chances are slim to none.No, Cindy, whether we like it or not assisted reproduction and adoption will not end. The best we can do as several people and the original post have stated, is to work to make both alternate ways to become parents as ethical and non-exploitive as possible. Neither option is going away, and assisted reproduction will continue to expand to things we cannot even imagine now. It needs to be closely monitored, regulated, and controlled and much of the profit motive and secrecy removed, Saying it is all sick and not as "ordained" does nothing to fix real-life problems or encourage feasible reforms, nor does hoping it will go away.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-82662492300524867932015-05-04T13:56:50.265-04:002015-05-04T13:56:50.265-04:00And you have given me the idea for what I am posti...And you have given me the idea for what I am posting next=-and very soon. Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-22680734882990469062015-05-04T13:48:05.957-04:002015-05-04T13:48:05.957-04:00Maryanne, I cover the points above in the forward ...Maryanne, I cover the points above in the forward to Hole in my Heart. I wrote a whole draft with "first" and "birth" mother used alternately and it sounded stilted and found that the language does offend many natural mothers (and Florence Fisher, BTW) and so I said, screw it, I'm going back to what feels natural and writing natural mother where I had to write something for clarity is what I did. The people who are going to get offended because I used the old language--natural mother--and not read the book because of that weren't going to read it anyway. So....WTF. <br />Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-90490403884914203512015-05-04T11:37:09.484-04:002015-05-04T11:37:09.484-04:00Oops, I forgot to include the old term "natur...Oops, I forgot to include the old term "natural mother" in my list of words we who have surrendered a child call ourselves, and it is a perfectly good and well-understood term. I can see why Lo prefers it. I used it too at times, but find it ironic that when we were called "natural mothers" back in the day even on legal papers, we were still treated as not worthy to raise our children.<br /><br />Lo, of course you are a mother, we all are, and semantics cannot alter reality and make us not a mother. Same with adoptive mothers, they are a mother too, in the psychological sense. Neither should cancel out the other. And that whole "who is real?" issue never gets resolved when each side insists they are the only real mom. Too bad someone came after you for this on Facebook.<br /><br />When you get into assisted reproduction my head spins as to who is what...egg donor mother, gestational mother, contract mother...it is like "who's on first?" for those old enough to remember the classic Abbot and Costello routine about baseball.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-70104055764866754232015-05-04T10:27:59.979-04:002015-05-04T10:27:59.979-04:00Readers may have noticed that I have gone back to ...Readers may have noticed that I have gone back to using "natural mother" somewhat in writing and in general that is what I am using in Hole in my Heart, and I explain why at the beginning of the book since language is so frigging loaded. I have never been fully comfortable with birth mother, or even "first mother"--I chose that for the blog title because it was alliterative and easy to remember. I added [Birth Mother] because of the search engine would pick up the words for people searching for information about us. <br /><br />As I have written before, sometimes I prefer "biological mother" these days because as Maryanne says, it is very clear about what it is. <br /><br />But the language is so loaded I set off a firestorm last week on Facebook when I quoted the words on the cover of Birthmark that are the most quoted words from the book, and posted it with a link to an adoptee's blog about not liking "positive adoption language" herself. Another adoptee got very incensed by this part of the quote:<br /><br /> "I had a baby and I gave her away. <br /> But I am a mother."<br /><br />She objects that I say I am a mother. Quotes scripture, says I am not a mother and since she is a mother, my using that language "demeans" her. Many people piped in and she is still responding 170 comments later. <br /><br />I finally said that argument about her being demeaned was like the people who object to gay marriage because it demeans their straight marriage. I feel like taking the whole thing down but it is ... instructive. <br />Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-91330012859500581342015-05-04T08:51:02.672-04:002015-05-04T08:51:02.672-04:00I need to clarify why the term "biological mo...I need to clarify why the term "biological mother" is not offensive to me as it is to some. We all should be free to use the term that works for us, and nobody should force others to use a term for themselves they find uncomfortable. For many this is "first mother", for some it is "birthmother", for others it is just "mother" with never a qualifier. All of those work for me, as well as "biological mother, and I take no offense at any of them, and use them interchangeably. If only one works for you, do use it. We should all be able to define ourselves, not be cowed by political correctness nor try to shame others for using a different term.<br /><br />I accept the term "biological mother" because what links me to my surrendered son is biology, a fact that cannot be erased by adoption nor refuted by what anyone wants to believe. Biology is why my son writes like me: both his awful handwriting and clear, funny, and passionate writing style. Biology is why we both have such a kinship and affinity with cats. That strongly runs in my family. Biology is why we share some physical and emotional strengths and weaknesses, and why he has my eyes and his biological father's profile and love of science.<br /><br />To me, the biological connection is not cold and clinical. devoid of emotion or demeaning. It is the living, breathing blood tie, the connection that will endure when we are all long gone. It is the unbreakable thread of life. Even years ago when CUB preferred "birthmother" over "biological mother", it really did not matter that much to me, nor does the current dismissal of "birthmother" as the proper term. <br /><br />I do not mean to upset or demean any mother by the terms I use, nor would I ever tell another mother what to call herself. We put our own internal meanings on many words that sometimes do not coincide with the intent of the person using the term, and the conversation gets derailed. I think we all should have a right to explain our intent rather than have others make assumptions about our words and put a derogatory meaning on them.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-83831773511085979272015-05-04T00:37:18.077-04:002015-05-04T00:37:18.077-04:00Time will tell. Until then, I will hope.Time will tell. Until then, I will hope.Cindy Aulabaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-37207017817023182112015-05-03T10:50:57.215-04:002015-05-03T10:50:57.215-04:00"Someday this will end."
I'm sorry ..."Someday this will end."<br /><br />I'm sorry to say, I think you're on the wrong side of history. Jessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-26563477122442375232015-05-03T09:23:26.443-04:002015-05-03T09:23:26.443-04:00More Jews than not of very stripe believe that for...More Jews than not of very stripe believe that for the child to be born Jewish, the mother --not the father--must be Jewish. I know of a couple relationships where the woman converted to meet that requirement, whether they were Reform on not. If the mother does not convert, the child must perform the same ritual of converting at some point to be considered truly Jewish. But those rules may not apply to all and all may not care. Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-87835862714535397662015-05-03T03:29:21.856-04:002015-05-03T03:29:21.856-04:00Well Jess, meet one you call an ''unreason...Well Jess, meet one you call an ''unreasonable reactionary''. The way it was designed and created to be is the only way it should be. The rest of this is sick!<br /><br />Jess says, ".........and adoption reform would be seen as unreasonably reactionary if it just threw up its hands at emerging family forms and said NO to anything except children born to and kept by biological mothers and fathers." <br /><br />Yes Jess, by all means ...foul and offensive, let's leave the door open to all ways to procure children from others, let's leave the door open to acquire children ANY way we possibly can regardless of whether it is ethical or moral or no matter what it costs the child or the parents of that child, let's allow children to be taken and or made in any way this world can dream up, regardless of the costs to others, or what's right, so all that can pay, can play mommy and daddy. It's sickening. See, it's really and truly not about "the best interest of the child'' it's about how to get a child, by whatever means.<br /><br />When people use diminishing language such as "biological'' to describe mothers and fathers... well, that is what makes it so very easy to - diminish and dismiss the importance of mothers and fathers and makes it so easy for others to see taking/getting children from them (in whatever manner, child or egg or sperm) as NO BIG DEAL. <br />It is a big deal though.... just ask the children (the sons and daughters). Then ask the parents whose children you acquired, how big a deal it is.<br /><br />Someday this will end.Cindy Aulabaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-83169098416845338702015-05-02T21:15:33.902-04:002015-05-02T21:15:33.902-04:00Both of these situations are ethical minefields to...Both of these situations are ethical minefields to be sure.<br />But as a side note .. regarding the worry that children from donors will ever know their true origins.. that is increasingly UNlikely due to DNA testing. in other countries it may be a different story but in the US it is getting ever more popular. I have personally witnessed MANY adoptees find their birth parents through DNA testing. This will only increase as the databases of people who have tested increase. Combined with public records, it is very doable.Rebecca G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-67073200551516251992015-05-02T19:54:00.557-04:002015-05-02T19:54:00.557-04:00Robin is correct: in Israel, and in non-Reform seg...Robin is correct: in Israel, and in non-Reform segments of American Jewish communities, a child with a Jewish father only must undergo conversion in order to be considered Jewish. This is less complicated a procedure for a newborn than for an adult, requiring circumcision for boys, and for both sexes, immersion in a mikveh (ritual bath) according to Jewish law. Not to worry, an adult (usually the father) securely holds the baby, and he or she isn't underwater long!<br /><br />From what I know, if the source of the egg is not known--from a paid anonymous donor, or from a woman who is not certifiably Jewish--the conversion process would be mandatory for a child that is intended to be raised as a Jew. Without it, he or she later cannot undergo a bar or bat mitzvah, be married as a Jew, etc.<br /><br />MrsTarquinBiscuitbarrelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00479830264284065679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-16308811386871134652015-05-02T18:05:54.147-04:002015-05-02T18:05:54.147-04:00Yes, there is a ceremony that is performed.
I fo...Yes, there is a ceremony that is performed. <br /><br />I found this additional info on surrgacy in Israel: The embryo can be created through the intended mother’s egg and intended father’s sperm using IVF. If the intended mother’s ova are not viable, an embryo can be created from a donated egg and the intended father’s sperm. Jessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-26310015326985314842015-05-02T17:48:58.058-04:002015-05-02T17:48:58.058-04:00As we say in the post....Nick Loeb doesn't wan...As we say in the post....Nick Loeb doesn't want any money from Vegara and is willing to exonerate her from any finanical responsibility. . He states that he will take on the full cost of "bringing them to term" (aka: surrogacy) and raising them and will have Vegara declared the egg donor if she wishes. <br /><br />They already had two female embryos implanted in surrogates apparently. though he doesn't say that but Vegara has said that she didn't want to have the children herself. One didn't take; the other, the surrogate miscarried. <br /><br />Modern Family indeed. <br /><br />Let us celebrate the daughter that Prince William and Kate had last night. Born the normal way.Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-14788647254280633552015-05-02T17:46:11.940-04:002015-05-02T17:46:11.940-04:00We have written just about on every subject you ca...We have written just about on every subject you can think of related to adoption and we always have turned to the news for ideas. It is true that while I am concentrating on my book, I have used parts of it for blogs, as Hole is my Heart is memoir with Facts and Commentaries spread throughout. Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-66380239289035713612015-05-02T17:39:54.326-04:002015-05-02T17:39:54.326-04:00The whole subject makes my head spin, unimaginable...The whole subject makes my head spin, unimaginable complications.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-85432365040577672642015-05-02T15:11:38.593-04:002015-05-02T15:11:38.593-04:00In Jewish law, a child is considered Jewish if the...In Jewish law, a child is considered Jewish if the natural mother is Jewish. In the United States where there is Reform, Conservative and Orthodox Judaism, only Reform temples consider a child Jewish if either of the parents is Jewish and the child is being raised as a Jew. That is why Ivanka Trump had to convert to Judaism when she married Jared Kushner so that there children would be Jewish.<br /><br />My understanding was that Israel follows the laws of what we here in the U.S. consider Orthodox Judaism. Wouldn't a child with only a Jewish father have to be converted to be considered a Jew in Israel? <br /><br />Robinhttp://www.allinthefamilyadoption.comnoreply@blogger.com