tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post7176099925299315831..comments2024-03-27T20:48:39.389-04:00Comments on [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: What adoption records belong to whom? Lorraine Duskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-81892713605188871932016-07-05T19:28:32.079-04:002016-07-05T19:28:32.079-04:00@anon July 5 1:24
the courts do issue an adoption ...@anon July 5 1:24<br />the courts do issue an adoption certificate. It is called an "Adoption Decree" or "Final Order of Adoption." This is another reason why the Amended version of the OBC is not even necessary at all.<br />BTW, I have never heard of an Amother signing the Amended BC. Cannot say it never happened, though. But, I have heard of lawyers having the natural mother give birth under the A-mother's name in the hospital. <br />Yes, you are right....DNA is forever....cannot be wiped away!!kittanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-45970302176783853992016-07-05T13:24:25.996-04:002016-07-05T13:24:25.996-04:00As a first mom, I would never want to see that del...As a first mom, I would never want to see that delusional amended "birth" certificate. Why don't they just issue an "official certificate of adoption" and have that signed by the A-parents and recognized as an official proof of identification? It's delusional that the A-mother signed an amended certificate that states that SHE gave birth to my son on his birthday. It's like the Holocaust -- all record of me was meant to be wiped away. But you can't wipe away DNA. Everytime the A-parents looked at my son, they saw me. And they knew it. Adoption is really so stupid and so sad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-80575541918088459472016-06-29T08:05:07.875-04:002016-06-29T08:05:07.875-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jane Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09715622112694146946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-54044943215627355702016-06-29T07:47:27.103-04:002016-06-29T07:47:27.103-04:00As a first mom, I think everything in the file bel...As a first mom, I think everything in the file belongs to me and me alone. Sorry, this is harsh, but I'll explain: The only reason this "forever family" was created was because of ME. Abortion was legal, but I did not pursue it because I was raised Catholic and thought I would go to hell. Out of fear I carried the pregnancy to term. My friends thought I was nuts. My boyfriend had a wallet loaded with dollar bills and was about to drive me to the clinic. But in my Pollyanna-esque mind, I decided to do "the right thing." Well, I sure could have spared myself a lot of pain and humiliation. I made money for the agency, provided an indentured servant to a barren couple, not to mention the grandchildren they now enjoy. (So they got not one, but several family members because of ME!) The fact is, children NEVER have a say as to the circumstances of their birth! Adoptees using that battle cry just baffle me. I was not adopted, but did I have a choice as to my folks, as to my siblings, as to the socioeconomic status I would be raised in, etc.? NO! <br /><br />What I went through decades ago was very personal and private -- it was MY business, it was MY body. The file and ALL information in it, even concerning the adoptive parents, belongs to ME, because their "forever family" originated with ME! And I have the right to know everything that is in the file about them, as they received my blood relative. I received NOTHING from them. (Will never thank them, because they never sacrificed. Everything the ever did for my child, they got something for it.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-16729092684575612712016-06-27T00:28:47.697-04:002016-06-27T00:28:47.697-04:00@Kaye,
yes, HB 2082 now signed into law does appar...@Kaye,<br />yes, HB 2082 now signed into law does apparently do just that. This is similar to the law in Oregon that Jane wrote about. kittanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-90145317231032085712016-06-25T20:33:00.624-04:002016-06-25T20:33:00.624-04:00Revisiting this older entry since the adoptee comm...Revisiting this older entry since the adoptee community is celebrating Hawaii's new law (Act 80), which apparently opens adoption records to adoptees, adoptive parents, AND birth parents.<br /><br />http://governor.hawaii.gov/acts-2/act-80-hb2082-hd1-sd1-6212016/kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14867231123908961933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-90752447763107408732016-06-18T23:24:56.428-04:002016-06-18T23:24:56.428-04:00@Kaisa,
My friend who worked in Vital Records advi...@Kaisa,<br />My friend who worked in Vital Records advised me to get my long form birth certificate when I told her that all I had ever had was my "certificate of birth registration." She told me that under the laws of today,since 9/11, I might need the long form birth certificate, especially if I were to want a passport.<br />My "certificate of birth registration"" was very brief like the document you have described. It had my birth name, my parents' names, the birth date, and the city.<br />I would check your birth state's vital records website and ask other people in that area who would have information about this, if you still have questions.<br />kittanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-80018227822397017692016-06-18T18:06:14.736-04:002016-06-18T18:06:14.736-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16571106249207987994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-15356540865649637912016-06-18T15:39:35.801-04:002016-06-18T15:39:35.801-04:00@Kaisa,
on a typical birth certificate, the attend...@Kaisa,<br />on a typical birth certificate, the attending physician's name/signature would appear, as would other official names, possibly. The hospital information would be there, as well as your weight, time of birth and other birth details...there is quite a bit of medical information on a full birth certificate, including the results of tests, and whether the child was a twin or single birth,and if there were birth complications. City, state, and county are included where the birth took place....and names and addresses of parents.<br /><br /> The mother often signs the original birth certificate. Adoptive mothers do not sign, their names are typed in on the amended version.<br />It sounds like your amended bc is either what is called a "short form bc" or else it is what is known as a "certificate of birth registration."<br />This could mean that there might be a longer form of your amended bc, maintained by the dept of vital records, which would have many more details on it. To get this, you would apply for it with vital records. Lots of people only received their short form or a certificate of birth registration....probably most people, including the non-adopted general public have never seen their full long form birth certificate.<br /><br />I didn't find this out until just a few years ago, when I realized that I did not have a copy of my own long-form bc. My father, who was still alive at the time, got 2 copies of my bc and sent one to me. <br />kittanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-42697747126390006142016-06-17T17:09:41.209-04:002016-06-17T17:09:41.209-04:00The people at the maternity home in which my mothe...The people at the maternity home in which my mother stayed know my father's name. But, the social worker cannot share it with me.<br /><br />I would need my mother's permission to obtain the information because they are her records. No, sorry, in this case, I believe I should be privy to that information. <br /><br />Some of the information should be hers to share. But, some of it isn't her information. Very annoyingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-44632637014230546362016-06-13T11:41:51.329-04:002016-06-13T11:41:51.329-04:00Amended birth certificates must vary by state. Min...Amended birth certificates must vary by state. Mine only has my name, those of my a parents, the city and state, and the date, and it is all printed on a typewriter. No other birth details or names. Philadelphia, PA.kaisa gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-73858140128534514522016-06-11T19:55:29.808-04:002016-06-11T19:55:29.808-04:00Lisa,
I was only talking about legal birth identit...Lisa,<br />I was only talking about legal birth identity and connection, and I do have a considerable amount of experience working in records law access/state adoption regulation. I was not disagreeing with what Greg said about personal identity. Obviously, we all have and gain identity and connectedness from many people/relatives both biological and non-biological, but my concern is with access to records in this thread.<br />Jane's post is about access to adoption records...that is why I am addressing that.<br />Adoptees gain much valuable personal connection from us(their birth mothers) and personal family history when they reunite with us. This is another concept that flows both ways.<br />Even birth itself is both a personal and public event, and has been called so by keepers of vital records, judges and lawmakers. Those of us who also work in search/support as I have are well aware of the personal history that adoptees are seeking from their families of origin, and also how identities can be somewhat altered when different information is gained.<br />Since you have also been reunited, you surely are well-aware of this. <br />Adoptees are just as related to their birth parents as their birth parents are to them. That is what I am saying. The birth family connection never ends, regardless of legalities. And that works both ways.<br />What I object to is the argument that the legalities only "work" when they provide special rights for adoptees, such as secrecy for adoptees. Adoptees do not need to be hidden. Adoptive parents do not need to be hidden. Birth parents do not need to be hidden.<br />We birth parents have been on the records ever since adoption started. The records used to be fully open. People seem to forget that, but we all could get them in the first part of the 20th century.<br />They were sealed because adoptive parents, mainly in Cali and Ny wanted to keep adoption secret, and then there was criminal social worker Georgia Tann stealing babies...<br />I found my son in 1989 because of a variety of reasons. He wanted me to find him, and we were lucky enough to reunite for 18 years. But, I don't believe in all of this secrecy, family separation,and related people having to do secret searches for family.<br /> Relatives should be able to know who their relatives are. It should be a natural part of living for everyone....unless a person has been determined/found to be a genuine threat or has harmed someone and there are laws and procedures to deal with that.kittanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-31418932458903530832016-06-11T09:16:47.328-04:002016-06-11T09:16:47.328-04:00Yes, yes, Kitta, but identity and connectedness, a...Yes, yes, Kitta, but identity and connectedness, as Greg explained in his comment, are not solely legal concepts. Let's not forget the importance and value of personal history. Lisanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-90450856391168816192016-06-11T00:49:57.520-04:002016-06-11T00:49:57.520-04:00Greg,
when I said that the adoptee was not "l...Greg,<br />when I said that the adoptee was not "listed" on the OBC I was referring to the legal identity of the adoptee. The OBC lists the birth identity of the child, as born to the birth parent(s). Once adopted, with an amended BC, the adoptee no longer has the birth identity. yes, some states allow the OBC to be retained after adoption, but most no longer allow that.<br />Without a birth parent to give birth, there would be no OBC to create an amended BC from. The amended BC is not really an entirely new certificate: it is edited. The adoptive parents' names and address are placed where the birth parents names and addresses were. But the birth parents medical data as well as the other birth details and other details tha also belong to the birth parent's history remain the same.<br />The adoptee and the birth parent share a common birth history. This remains on the amended birth certificate, in the US, at least much of the time.<br />I say this, because I have a copy of my sons' Amended birth certificate and I filled out and signed the Original Birth Certificate, from which it was copied. They are the same, except for the names.<br />Birth remains the same, which is really what you said in your message. And that is what I am saying.The connection is a birth connection. Adoptive parents do not give birth.<br />Adoptees are born. Birth parents give birth to them, and their birth data is on both certificates. They have a right to both. I believe that all triad members have a right to access both certificates.<br />This is in keeping with general birth certificate laws which allow many relatives to access birth certificates. kittanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-81870972023543497712016-06-10T22:28:00.868-04:002016-06-10T22:28:00.868-04:00@kitta
Just a quick note that I disagree that my i...@kitta<br />Just a quick note that I disagree that my identity is not listed or contained within my original birth certificate. It's my original identity, and I carried it forward with me, legal or not. While about a year later I was fitted legally with a different identity (i.e. adopted, with a different name), what is contained on my OBC still remains who I was when I was born. It means a lot to many but not all adoptees that they know and understand that initial identity, whatever that brings to them. For us (and I suspect most people), identity is a very fluid concept, whether that identity is wrapped up or defined by race, gender, adoption, or any other constructed concept. I can understand that the name given to me on my original birth certificate did not remain my "legal" name, but it continues to be very much part of my whole identity, of who I am.<br /><br />I also disagree that a birth mother has a direct connection to the amended birth certificate. It is a new identity, constructed out of and from a prior declared identity. Every birth mother should have a right to the original birth certificate with the original identity, though some don't have such unrestricted access. But I don't believe there is a solid legal interest in allowing birth parents to have access to the amended birth certificate. I think for the most part only adoptees can claim interest in both---they are the subject and registrant of both.<br /><br />Interestingly, though, in a number of states adoptive parents have discretion to decide whether a new amended birth certificate should even be issued. In that case, where the original remains the only one, it seems everyone should have access.Gregory Lucehttp://gregoryluce.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-50612683805451831142016-06-10T17:46:44.759-04:002016-06-10T17:46:44.759-04:00Adoptees no longer have the "legal identity&q...Adoptees no longer have the "legal identity" listed on their OBC. The justification for releasing the OBC to adoptees is that it is their birth record, and everyone has a record of birth, with (accurate as much as possible) record of parentage. But, legally, the adopted person has no connection to it and their current "identity" is not listed on it. So, technically the "adoptee" is not listed on the OBC.<br />The Amended Birth certificate is a copy of the OBC that is edited to remove the parentage and birth name of the adopted person. Both the adopted person and the birth parents have a "direct connection to the Amended Birth Certificate" because they either (gave birth) to or are the registrant or are related. Although they are not legally related, birth still connects them, just as birth connects the adoptee to the OBC.<br /><br />@ Mashka<br />how would you establish a "right" to an accurate medical history? I am assuming you are speaking of relatives' medical history. Right now in the US, and in the past, there is no law granting access to relatives' medical histories. For anyone.<br />All we can do is ask. It can be given voluntarily, with the caveat that it may not be accurate.<br />There is no way to guarantee an accurate diagnosed medical history, no way to force anyone to "collect their relatives' histories" and no way to extract information from people who do not have it because it does not exist.kittanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-47739723910307471002016-06-10T15:21:24.564-04:002016-06-10T15:21:24.564-04:00I agree with some of the commenter here, like Lori...I agree with some of the commenter here, like Lori. As an adoptee the only things I feel I was entitled to are my OBC and accurate medical history,that includes any known psychiatric history. I am half lucky. I have my OBC. However I do not have an accurate family medical history, and that is my birth mother's fault (to my face she didn't give me an accurate family medical history), so I doubt she reported an accurate medical history when I was born to the delivering hospital. So this is a right that is unenforceable because as Dr House says people lie. I believe biological parents should be able to obtain the OBC, she or both are also listed on it. They should not have access to the amended birth certificate, they're not listed on it. Mashkanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-63774349710318818492016-06-09T22:54:26.865-04:002016-06-09T22:54:26.865-04:00I am not and will not read all the comments here, ...I am not and will not read all the comments here, but I agree with Jane. After reading the file that the court had on me (which, according to the current Superior Court Judge, can't even remotely be substantiated through the actual records) and the comments in the file that the social worker submitted to force the adoption through the system (conveniently the worker has "retired"), I can see where the adoptive parents thought they were going to have to deal with much more than was real. I believe that accurate medical records, my name, last known address and the OBC are the only things my daughter was or is entitled to. The rest of the stuff was either inaccurate, or, sadly, simply lies and probably created a lot of suffering that was needless. JMHOLorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815710859859029536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-89499239713990293392016-06-09T07:58:23.560-04:002016-06-09T07:58:23.560-04:00Rich--thanks for adding this comment and clarifyin...Rich--thanks for adding this comment and clarifying Colorado. If we could have a bill like yours in NY, I would be dancing in the street. Thank you for all you have done for adoptees--and natural mothers! <br />Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-67006744766753292412016-06-09T00:17:14.469-04:002016-06-09T00:17:14.469-04:00Colorado's new law allowing adult adoptees acc...Colorado's new law allowing adult adoptees access to records specifically excludes pre-relinquishment counseling records. This was an important talking point in favor of the argument that the bill struck an appropriate balance between an adoptee's legitimate interest in knowing their past and protecting a birth /first parent's privacy. It also helped quell LCPA fears about lawsuits.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08059868677901460619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-10583842679085366242016-06-08T19:52:36.067-04:002016-06-08T19:52:36.067-04:00Another adoptee voice here. My take is divided bet...Another adoptee voice here. My take is divided between what I think is right as far as law and what is right for me personally. As for the law, I think respecting the privacy of medical records makes sense, they shouldn't be accessible by other parties. Counseling given to prospective parents should also remain private. But I think any savvy prospective parent these days ought to seek counseling separate from adoption services and that such counseling - separate - should be encouraged by adoption agencies, prospective grandparents and any other well-meaning advisor. I don't know what business is it of adoption agencies or the courts whatever the substance of someone's counseling consists of, it is for the benefit of that person alone.kaisa gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-75481561782130078072016-06-08T18:41:37.512-04:002016-06-08T18:41:37.512-04:00Argh. Who is Gregory and why is HE such a "b...Argh. Who is Gregory and why is HE such a "bright light"? <br /><br />There are legions of adoptees fighting to correct inequities in current adoption laws and to raise public awareness of the disturbing realities existing in the adoption industry. <br /><br />We're ALL trying to bring about positive change. We just don't necessarily all agree on what that means.kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14867231123908961933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-30549722599078360062016-06-08T18:32:31.028-04:002016-06-08T18:32:31.028-04:00"Sometimes "nothing" is better than..."Sometimes "nothing" is better than "something" if that "something" is criminal."<br /><br />I disagree. There's absolutely nothing that can be written in an adoption file that's worse than what an adoptee can imagine on his/her own, given the absence of REAL information.<br /><br />I think most adoptees would rather have SOMEthing, versus nothing at all.<br />kayehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14867231123908961933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-81457790987206394972016-06-08T15:53:43.361-04:002016-06-08T15:53:43.361-04:00Greg, you are a hero in my eyes. It's adoptee...Greg, you are a hero in my eyes. It's adoptees such as you with the tenacity, compassion, and brilliance who will help bring about positive change in the near future. Reading your comments brings me hope and reassurance. Thank you for what you do to help adoptees and also us first mothers. You "get it" and are a bright light leading the way.Melissanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-74566869053219999102016-06-08T15:52:06.166-04:002016-06-08T15:52:06.166-04:00Who is Gaye?Who is Gaye?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com