tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post7669933059154735048..comments2024-03-27T20:48:39.389-04:00Comments on [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: Guatemalan mother loses son to American coupleLorraine Duskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-3935545934001666422012-08-20T22:57:43.694-04:002012-08-20T22:57:43.694-04:00It is not surprising to me that the Mosers are ask...It is not surprising to me that the Mosers are asking for donations. Litigation is extremely expensive and this case have been extensively litigated.<br /><br />Calling this kidnapping is ridiculous. You may disagree with the courts decision but that does not make the Mosers criminals. In fact, according to the court, they were in the right.<br /><br />If you read the court judgement, there are appear to have been several issues with the natural mother which troubled the court. She left two children behind in Guatemala and has not seen them in seven years. She did not take adequate steps to care for the child before her incarnation. In addition to being guilty of, and convicted of, identify theft she apparently committed tax fraud. She also admitted that she intended to continue breaking US immigration laws. Finally, she appears to have also committed perjury during the proceeding. While this is a crime that is seldom prosecuted, it won't help you win your case if the Court believes you are lying. <br /><br />It's easy to see reading the judgement, why she lost her case. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-5587397314682083602012-07-29T11:36:00.078-04:002012-07-29T11:36:00.078-04:00"Who knew? On the sites adoptive parents were..."Who knew? On the sites adoptive parents were talking about hating their adopted kids. They were complaining about "everybody saying how wonderful adoption is." Also, one of them said that they can see why Islam has banned adoption. Whaaaat!? When I have time, I'm going to see if my eyes had deceived me. "<br /><br />What nasty people they must be. And how wrong. The reason why Islam banned adoption can be read here, under "Duties of Parents": <br />http://www.faqs.org/childhood/In-Ke/Islam.html<br /><br />"Due to the importance of patrilineal descent, adoption is not permitted in Islam (Qur'an XXXIII: 4–5), although before the advent of Islam it was practiced in Arabia."Bettynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-202416690212215602012-07-25T14:49:53.443-04:002012-07-25T14:49:53.443-04:00Personally, if you are a mother or an adoptee you ...Personally, if you are a mother or an adoptee you are victimized. Losing your first and only bond at the beginning of one's life does a real number on a person's whole life. <br /><br />If this weren't true we would not have so many people searching sometimes their whole lives.<br /><br />I prefer NOT to be called a victim. I am a survivor of the failed social experiment called adoption. Reunited motherMothernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-42671918272919437542012-07-24T19:26:13.390-04:002012-07-24T19:26:13.390-04:00Thanks to all of you for your great and clever, an...Thanks to all of you for your great and clever, and/or concise, and/or funny, comments! You "guys" are terrific! <br /><br />I stumbled onto a couple of interesting sites. Who knew? On the sites adoptive parents were talking about hating their adopted kids. They were complaining about "everybody saying how wonderful adoption is." Also, one of them said that they can see why Islam has banned adoption. Whaaaat!? When I have time, I'm going to see if my eyes had deceived me. <br /><br />(All day it's been feeling like a Saturday! Weird!)caleigh brookshttp://caleighbrookswatchingthewatchers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-45676637723963192102012-07-24T17:02:35.045-04:002012-07-24T17:02:35.045-04:00Every person involved in adoption was not victimiz...Every person involved in adoption was not victimized, although many were. It is not that simple. All adoption is not victimization.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-68018014115295177792012-07-24T16:06:44.609-04:002012-07-24T16:06:44.609-04:00There are some who say Pres. Obama was born in Ken...There are some who say Pres. Obama was born in Kenya and others who say he was born in Hawaii. Let's find a middle ground and say he was born in Indonesia where he lived until he was about ten.Jane Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05669797756463841249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-68028480142758395082012-07-24T15:00:36.711-04:002012-07-24T15:00:36.711-04:00Leave out all examples and comparisons and ask the...Leave out all examples and comparisons and ask the following: <br /><br />Is there a middle ground when one is discussing victimization?maybehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07067284504038707207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-3604168075494951462012-07-24T12:50:55.339-04:002012-07-24T12:50:55.339-04:00@Lorraine @ 9:23 today:
If you were referring to ...@Lorraine @ 9:23 today:<br /><br />If you were referring to the comment by Anon 7/23 4:09, I did not misunderstand that you were agreeing with Caleigh. That was quite clear. I was appalled by Caleigh's comments and shocked that you agreed with her 12:59 post, these analogies in particular:<br /><br />Caleigh wrote:<br />"How does that ubiquitous, hackneyed, phrase sit with other victimization?<br /><br />Let's say, "How would that phrase sit with Holocaust survivors?" The truth lies somewhere in the middle!<br /><br />Ok, let's try another victimization on for size? "How would that phrase fit within pedophilia?" The truth lies somewhere in the middle!<br /><br />Ok, let's try on a less EXTREME (not really, it costs lives) victimization. "How would that phrase sit with bullying?" The truth lies somewhere in the middle!"<br /><br />Those comparisons are the kind of extremism that divides rather than enlightens. It seemed out of character with the stated goals here that you so enthusiastically agreed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-18123279811913032442012-07-24T00:03:43.854-04:002012-07-24T00:03:43.854-04:00Thanks for filling in the detais of the court'...Thanks for filling in the detais of the court's action, Samantha.Jane Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05669797756463841249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-82030881003355017342012-07-23T21:23:35.057-04:002012-07-23T21:23:35.057-04:00Anonymous way up the comment roll: You apparently ...Anonymous way up the comment roll: You apparently misunderstood my comment. Caleigh in now way calls for a "middle ground." Quite the opposite. And I was agreeing with her. Sorry about the hurried comment that led to the misunderstanding.Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-30017131412474570912012-07-23T21:21:15.992-04:002012-07-23T21:21:15.992-04:00In my last comment, I meant to say in the last sen...In my last comment, I meant to say in the last sentence <br /><br />"this decision sent the case back to trial and if Romero's attorney didn't object to the specifics of the abandonment and neglect allegations, they won't be able to bring it up on appeal."Samantha Phttp://www.facebook.com/groups/121713731180015/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-18836149906201331622012-07-23T21:15:33.837-04:002012-07-23T21:15:33.837-04:00Jen: copy of current judgement. It is listed above...Jen: copy of current judgement. It is listed above in one of my comments. It was released by the Mosters and if you go to the home page you can send them nice words and also donate to their fund! <br /><br />http://www.intheinterestofjamison.com/judgment-7-18-12.pdfLorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-82618562208824094442012-07-23T20:39:11.729-04:002012-07-23T20:39:11.729-04:00Betty: I would never dream of saying that adoptive...Betty: I would never dream of saying that adoptive parents are victimizers. The adoption industry victimizes, brainwashes, vulnerable single moms and dads. I'm sorry I wasn't clear.caleigh brookshttp://caleighbrookswatchingthewatchers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-38247193739062318092012-07-23T20:28:41.986-04:002012-07-23T20:28:41.986-04:00In a previous comment under this Guatemalan post, ...In a previous comment under this Guatemalan post, an adoptive parent called this blog group - FMF - EXTREMISTS!<br /><br />WOW! Really? I like it! Yeaaaahh! That's very interesting!!! <br /><br />(I thank her for that - see, we learn from each other. If we were extremists, you - the community of adoptive parents - would have never gotten our kids.)<br /><br />The framers of our United States Constitution were considered criminals and extremists!<br /><br />The abolishers of slavery were certainly viewed as extremists, and worse.<br /><br />Fighters for women's right to vote, equal pay, etc. were considered daring extremists.<br /><br />Freedom-fighters all over the world are considered extremists, criminals, and terrorists - just look at Syria.<br /><br />Since we all know that, "Mothers don't give children away," what we, extremists, are asking for is very simple: <br /><br />We would like the adoption-machine, the adoption-industry, to kindly stop finagling, coercing, children from our VULNERABLE single moms and dads through various subtle and not-so-subtle maneuvers and tricks and brainwashing. That's all we ask! There are laws on the books against coercion, lack of full disclosure, and the like.<br /><br />If that's EXTREME - then THANKS for the compliment! We're in good company.<br /><br />(I don't mean to be "picking on" the courageous adoptive parent who assessed us as being extreme. Well, yes, we could be viewed as extreme since society-at-large hasn't been allowed to hear from us yet! We haven't been allowed to speak yet! She, and the rest of society, has been groomed to think that single moms and dads don't deserve to parent their own children. She and the rest of society has been groomed to believe that it's perfectly ok to take the children of another. She probably doesn't know that this adoption healing movement is huge - there are a gazillion of us, extremists, out here; both adoptees and moms are healing and we're gonna' be heard soon.)caleigh brookshttp://caleighbrookswatchingthewatchers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-23080365994051864712012-07-23T19:16:52.883-04:002012-07-23T19:16:52.883-04:00The horror of victimization and trauma runs deep a...The horror of victimization and trauma runs deep and long - a lifetime - it's just managed a little better with healing. Being heard, GRIEVING OPENLY, is the key to any kind of healing. Grieving in secret does not heal wounds! ViCTIMS STAY SILENT! It's very, VERY, difficult for victims to come forward and speak!!! Ideally, grieving is acknowledged in the mainstream media - we hear it every day.<br /><br />I'm saying all that to say that I was on terrible tenterhooks afraid that the moderators of FMF would not publish my last comment under this post about "the truth being somewhere in the middle." Thank you, Lorraine & Jane, for being honorable and, as a result, helping us heal!<br /><br />I wrote a couple of comments under the July 15, 2012, post about Catelynn and Tyler and under the July 11, 2012, post about Vladimir Makovsky's painting. How does that work? Do commenters typically check past posts for straggling comments? <br /><br />There's so much great info on this site! If the illustrious mainstream media wanted to report the truth, they'd have to go no further than this site. Media doesn't want to report the truth because the adoption-machine is too powerful a lobby group - too many adoption-adoring viewers out there. <br /><br />But, of course, I foresee that changing soon. We all know that the truth always wins out - the truth will not be denied! Sometimes it just takes awhile!caleigh brookshttp://caleighbrookswatchingthewatchers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-44026980602631534632012-07-23T18:13:26.272-04:002012-07-23T18:13:26.272-04:00Samantha P asked why this child was allowed to be ...Samantha P asked why this child was allowed to be based around instead of going into foster care and have child welfare be involved which is what should have happened. Busy-body Laura Davenport, the "Parent Educator" took it upon herself to pass him around rather than contacting child welfare. The details are in the Missouri Supreme Court opinion reversing the earlier trial court opinion. Here's a link. http://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=43941Jane Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05669797756463841249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-21666944503816116262012-07-23T18:02:03.342-04:002012-07-23T18:02:03.342-04:00Here are the Missouri Supreme Court decisions from...Here are the Missouri Supreme Court decisions from before this latest trial:<br /><br />http://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=40251<br /><br /><br /><br />In the first try at adoption, the Mossers and their atty didn't even try to prove that the mother was unfit and only went for best interest. Also, no one involved had the right to place the child for adoption. <br /><br />From the first decision: "Although we do not vouch for the veracity of the<br />evidence presented on Mother's behalf in this appeal, the fact that none of this evidence was presented to the trial court is a result of Respondents' failure to follow the statutory process. The legislature developed a set of laws to determine how custody may be lawfully taken away from a parent; therefore, substantial actions outside of that statutory scheme were prejudicial to Mother.<br /><br />...<br /><br />We have never allowed courts to choose between competing parents on the simple standard of "best interests" of the child. By allowing this type of transfer, we would not only contradict the statutory requirements, but would also open the door to the black marketing of children. The failure to comply with the adoption procedures invites fraudulent presentations of incomplete information to the trial court."<br /><br /><br />http://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=43941<br /><br />What I don't understand is that in this decision, the Missouri Supreme Court states that "On October 28, 2007, Mother sent Mr. Hensley, Adoptive Parents’ attorney, a letter written in English and Spanish stating that she did not want her child adopted, she wanted her child placed in foster care, and she requested visitation."<br /><br />Yet in the link posted by the Mossers of the latest lower court decision, the court states that the mother never requested DSS services. That's a bit odd, no? On the flip-side, this letter shows that she had plenty of notice of potential legal proceedings and that she knew where the child was and that she was able to send letters. <br /><br />Romero's atty failed to dispute evidence regarding neglect and abandonment during the trial. Therefore, any evidence regarding this cannot be reviewed during appeal. <br /><br />"As Mother did not object to Ms. Davenport’s testimony, the trial court did not err in considering Ms. Davenport’s hearsay testimony. This Court will review this evidence with all other evidence in the record on appeal when considering Mother’s sufficiency of evidence claims."<br /><br />See pages 31-34 regarding the court finding that Romero did abandon the child. <br /><br />This decision sends the whole case back to trial and unless the Romero raised the proper objections regarding the findings of abandonment, it's unlikely that she will be able to appeal again.Samantha Phttp://www.facebook.com/groups/121713731180015/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-33999140514589417772012-07-23T17:33:14.735-04:002012-07-23T17:33:14.735-04:00Lorrainne, I can't seem to find the link to th...Lorrainne, I can't seem to find the link to the decision. All I see is a CNN article and a few blog entries. Where ia it?Jennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-86057749885716147072012-07-23T16:57:34.107-04:002012-07-23T16:57:34.107-04:00Stefanie wrote:" In addition if I were to fin...Stefanie wrote:" In addition if I were to find out today my own mother was a "genetic stranger" would that change how I feel about her? No. I love her because she nurtured me. Now, we would have a lot to discuss!"<br /><br />I don't think you can really say this since you are not adopted and really do not understand the experience of being an adoptee. Actually, what you wrote above is called being a Late Discovery Adoptee (LDA) which is particularly traumatic. I think you are in over your head speaking about how you would feel if you were adopted and how that would affect your relationship with your APs (especially if until adulthood you had believed them to be your biological parents).<br /><br />I agree with Caleigh that there is no middle ground in certain issues. Also, usually it is important to take a strong and what many consider an extreme position at the time in order to effect any kind of change at all.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-9177804442529876852012-07-23T16:45:30.757-04:002012-07-23T16:45:30.757-04:00Caleigh, First Mother Forum does not believe that ...Caleigh, First Mother Forum does not believe that all adopters are victimizers:<br /> http://www.firstmotherforum.com/p/what-we-think-about-adoption.htmlBettynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-15061513875064251002012-07-23T16:09:04.587-04:002012-07-23T16:09:04.587-04:00lorraine wrote:Caleigh: Love your response about v...lorraine wrote:Caleigh: Love your response about victimization and meeting in the middle. Welcome back."<br /><br />Thanks Lorraine,for letting us know where you really stand. If we are not anti adoption we are no better than pedophiles or holocaust deniers according to caleigh. No middle ground here, evidently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-52775367198737839982012-07-23T15:19:57.953-04:002012-07-23T15:19:57.953-04:00And yes, I have been to the Mosers site, and yes t...And yes, I have been to the Mosers site, and yes they are soliciting donations. <br /><br />Caleigh: Love your response about victimization and meeting in the middle. Welcome back.Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-65724182346728968762012-07-23T15:13:38.007-04:002012-07-23T15:13:38.007-04:00ACtually, Jen, you can read the decision. See link...ACtually, Jen, you can read the decision. See link above. <br /><br />Adoption industry today--I should have said that "pro-adoption consciousness of the wider world today." <br /><br />This case is complicated and the first error was letting the son go to people who were potential adopters, rather than foster parents while his mother was jailed. The "adoption industry" is what channeled Carlos into the hands of people who wanted to adopt; then the industry was facilitated by judges who think poor people with unstable lives should turn over their children to middle class people who do not have disrupted lives and do not know grinding poverty.Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-6405481430024520902012-07-23T14:23:36.044-04:002012-07-23T14:23:36.044-04:00Lots of assumptions here. Because the trial court...Lots of assumptions here. Because the trial court transcripts are sealed, we don't know the basis of the decision. In fact, one poster who is familiar with Mo law says that best interest of the child is secondary to other concerns. <br /><br />Bail Romero had previously left her other children in Guatamala for her sister to raise. That previous abandonment might have neen the grounds for the court's decision.<br /><br />Another thing- Lorrainne blames this on the Adoption Industry. But this would fall within the arena of the system. Do you consider that part of the Adoption Industry, even though it ia a government agency?Jennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-50275946826926571442012-07-23T12:59:41.138-04:002012-07-23T12:59:41.138-04:00Now that the VICTIMS of the billion-dollar adoptio...Now that the VICTIMS of the billion-dollar adoption machine have slowly begun coming out of the horror-filled adoption-closet A COUPLE OF DECADES AGO, the VICTORS have TODAY begun to defend themselves, often attempting to convince said victims (with glazed-over eyes) that both natural parents and adoptive parents are of value, "The truth lies somewhere in the middle," they say. It's cute & comforting.<br /><br />How does that ubiquitous, hackneyed, phrase sit with other victimization?<br /><br />Let's say, "How would that phrase sit with Holocaust survivors?" The truth lies somewhere in the middle!<br /><br />Ok, let's try another victimization on for size? "How would that phrase fit within pedophilia?" The truth lies somewhere in the middle!<br /><br />Ok, let's try on a less EXTREME (not really, it costs lives) victimization. "How would that phrase sit with bullying?" The truth lies somewhere in the middle!<br /><br />There's just no reasonable, civilized, way to explain away victimization!<br /><br />Herein lies one problem: People refuse to see the degree to which adoption - family separation - is an atrocity. (Imagine the separation of your family!) <br /><br />But, I predict, adoption-adorers (which is everybody except the victims) will soon be forced to realize the atrociousness of adoption as more victims come out of the closet not just in our supportive blogs but also in the mainstream media. <br /><br />The adoption machine's victims, as of 2012, are still not allowed in the mainstream media. Why is that? What will it take?<br /><br />(Thank you to the courageous adoptive parents who come to participate in these healing blogs. Victimization is not a pretty picture! We realize that adoptive parents are also victims of the adoption machine, too. Sort of?)caleigh brookshttp://caleighbrookswatchingthewatchers.comnoreply@blogger.com