Comments on [Birth Mother,] First Mother Forum: Open or closed: Losing a child to adoption is pain...

((((Dpen))))

2012-02-02T05:23:02.386-05:00

((((Dpen))))

@ Dpen That is so not selfish of you and I know t...

2012-01-30T00:16:35.417-05:00

@ Dpen

That is so not selfish of you and I know that so well. That is why my blog is called, "Joy's Division" my nmom took it to mean, my division as in my department, there are so many ways to take it. It is obviously a play on the band whose it single was "Love will Tear Us Apart" Again. Which is also true, but it is mostly about the division with me, the conflicting realities, the feeling of being all busted apart. And loving all the parts but not knowing how to put them together.

Not knowing how to not feel abandoned, not knowing how to not feel loving, not knowing how not to want to be inclusive, not knowing how not to want to not hurt the very important to me people in my life. How do I take care of all these people's feelings and myself? How do I form an identity with all these people's needs weighing so heavily on my identity?

Without all my information? It is a fuck of thing, a fuck of a thing.

Email anytime you want girl, I just want you to know, am in your corner.

Joy

Thank you all for your nice comments. It has been...

2012-01-29T22:21:34.121-05:00

Thank you all for your nice comments. It has been really hard and has brought up a lot of feelings and questions.

I really am taking this harder then I thought. I am no spring chicken and dad was 84. I am taking this harder then losing my mom when she was only 64 and i was in my late 30's. But in the interim of losing my mother and father i lost my first mother, a beloved aunt(adopted) that was more like a sister and various other family members. I have been trying to assimulate my adoption my life just to put things together for myself and my children.

It is so true thatwishing you were not adopted is wishing people out of your life....how can that be...also being happy you were adopted is wishing people out of your life and i don't want either. Hmmm...call me selfish for wanting both without the burden of society wrath of wanting both without the burden of pain that everyone elses carries. hmmm..wonder what its like liveing in a normal, abnormal family bound by blood AND family experiances, love and emotional attachments.

lorraine, I understand why some don't want to here the about the love an adoptee may feel for their parents and family. Because it is a pawn for the blindfolded pro adoption peeps. Another manipulation of an adoptees experiance and feelings. Other people may think its like thowing dirt in the first families face..its neither. Its just aan experiance of some adoptees..some didn't have the same experiance. And both reasons are again...trying to manipulate a person to their way of feeling and making one persons experiance about them.

To all potential first mothers out there...keep your child unless their is a more then compelling reason not to. Losing a child, a family member is sad thing..even if they have had a wonderful life and a wonderful family. Don't let them experiance the confusion that may of us have had to endure even in the best of situaions.

To all potential adoptive parents out there, your need for a child NEVER outweighs the childs need for blood and the knowledge of where they came from. Deal with whatever "compelled" you to adopt in the the first place. Before you bring an onnocent child into the picture.

ok...sorry for the rambling. Loved my mom and dad....also cared about my first mother and did have a sense of love. Its all so complicated. Don't know about my birth father.

Dpen, so sorry about your father. I lost my dad e...

2012-01-29T17:03:47.555-05:00

Dpen, so sorry about your father. I lost my dad earlier this year, and my mom about 7 years ago (adoptive parents). I wasn't expecting it to be as hard as it was, especially losing my dad. I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers this week.

@Dpen, I am so sorry for your loss. Of course, you...

2012-01-29T09:27:04.543-05:00

@Dpen,
I am so sorry for your loss. Of course, you are grieving as much as any non-adopted person. You lost your FATHER.

Lorraine wrote:"We are often accused of not understanding or wanting to hear about adoptive relationships like the one you describe--not true!"

I am glad you wrote that. I have sometimes felt that first parents in their pain and grief at the loss of their child have not wanted to accept that our adoptive families ARE our families. They were not long-term babysitters but are our parents, grandparents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc., even if we are not blood related.

I was born into two wonderful families (glaring exception...my natural father) and would have rather stayed with them and never had adoption enter my life. It is actually quite creepy to realize that my life was so massively manipulated by what was essentially a social experiment.

@ Dpen: Wow, so sorry, I didn't know, have be...

2012-01-29T02:14:54.293-05:00

@ Dpen:

Wow, so sorry, I didn't know, have been out of it.

Oh honey, ((((((Dpen)))))) and you said it beautifully, I feel you girl, yes it sucks, being adopted sucks but wishing I wasn't adopted includes wishing people I love very much out of my life, so I can't even do that simply, I can't even wish the pain that I feel away because I love my afam. v. much.

That is part of the mind-f*ck of it though, I can't even wish it away.

Dpen: Such a thoughtful, loving comment, at such ...

2012-01-28T23:25:46.577-05:00

Dpen:

Such a thoughtful, loving comment, at such a painful time for you. Losing a loved parent is always difficult, and we are glad to hear that your father was so understanding about everything. We are often accused of not understanding or wanting to hear about adoptive relationships like the one you describe--not true!--and so I am doubly glad that you shared your story more fully here.

Thank you for taking the time to come by here and sharing your thoughts. I will keep you in my thoughts tonight.

hugs--
lo

PS: To all who read this comment earlier with the mistakes: Sorry. My fingers mixup letters, I change syntax in the middle of a thought, and I am in a hurry.

Crown and coke? As in a tiara and cocaine? sounds...

2012-01-28T23:08:40.510-05:00

Crown and coke?

As in a tiara and cocaine? sounds better than less edgy sounds like my favorite kind of weekend.

If memory serves. Le sigh. Sorry, this old girl can't help it...

Joy

Dpen - I am so very sorry for your loss. Please k...

2012-01-28T22:27:03.045-05:00

Dpen - I am so very sorry for your loss. Please keep in touch and reach out when you can.

the adoptedones

In response to the adopte ones comment....So agree...

2012-01-28T19:31:30.814-05:00

In response to the adopte ones comment....So agree with EVERYTHING you have said. Adoption happened to me. No matter what the circumstance, no matter who was wronged....nom atter what I was still fostered and adopted.

I have had lots of feelings this week, about adoption, parentage, mothers, fathers. We just buried my Dad this past monday. It brought up lots of feelings. Main on is LOVE...daughterly love for my dad and my mom. We Are going through my childhood home and the tears and grief are right there. I can not imagine me feeling less so they any non adopted person. They were wonderful people and i had a great childhood. He was VERY ethical regarding my adoption. We often talked about how he would not adopt through CC because he felt it was baby buying and he was right. It also brought up the grief of losing my mom 17 years ago(its been that long?) . My brothers and sister have reacted AS A FAMILY...we are working to together to finish what he wanted us to do. WE are ALL hurting.

The thought that at age 10 or 12 i could have been removed from them makes me shudder...and the reality is that at that time my first mother WAS ready to care for me. I would have felt like that rope that the adopted ones talked about. This was now my life, i was put there by bigger forces then I and to yank it away would have just been cruel.

None of those feelings above take anything anyway from my first family. None of my feelings for my first fammily takes anything away from my adoptive family. A childs life is not made to be a competiton for the mothers or fathers...a childs life is the CHILDS life. The person adopted.

Does my grief and love for my adoptive family make me grateful to be adopted...no....I still wish i didnt HAVE to be adopted in the first place. Either kept by my first family(never would have known my adoptive family) or born into my adoptive family is what i would have wanted. Being stuck in the middle and being told how to be ect...being discussed as a non person is horrible.

Open adoption does not cure what an adoptee needs...it might make ita little easier if both mothers a re able to honor it and rise to the occasion for the child.

Late to the party...from theadoptedones - blogger ...

2012-01-28T12:16:45.100-05:00

Late to the party...from theadoptedones - blogger is acting up.

I think openess can be beneficial to the child, but I do think it is equally hard on the [original] mother as closed - different ways but just as hard, yet it does also provide some measure of relief to the mother - it has too. For the [adoptive] mother it is just as hard - she will have just as many insecurities and fears to work through despite holding all the cards - you can't avoid those feelings they are normal.

Now to the discussion on removing the child - up to a certain age when done as gently as possible it can work - I don't have an age but it has to be very young. After a certain age I stand with Mei-Ling and Robin - I am and always will be part of my [adoptive] family - the same way I am and always will be a part of my [original] family. You can't wave a magic wand and have them disappear out of the childs heart - just not possible.

[Adoptive] parents who are doing their utmost to uphold and create an open relationship with their childs [original] family should never be lumped in with those who use "open adoptions" solely to adopt the child and shut the door.

And just like I do not look favorably on people who would say bad things about my [original] family and use less than nice terms for them - so do I look at those who apply the same rhetoric and terms to my [adoptive] family. It works both ways. Some terms can be used two ways - written as proper terminology or as a negative term.

Adoptees are the "rope" that can become a the tug of war between two families - sometimes it sucks when each side wants to win - because then the one in the middle is the casualty. Would be much better if the rope was used to bind the two families together rather than pull them apart in a winner takes all manner.

Happy Birth Mother, I too hope the day never come...

2012-01-28T11:54:44.923-05:00

Happy Birth Mother,

I too hope the day never comes when you regret your decision. The Truth hurts. It's much easier to stay in denial. I hope your son one day understands your decision.

If adoption records had been open at the time (196...

2012-01-28T11:05:57.995-05:00

If adoption records had been open at the time (1962) I would not have had to relinquish. I would have been able to marry and raise my child. The knowledge that adoptees have the same right as everybody else to know their origins impacts the whole ball game in a positive way.

Whether open adoption is less painful for the mother, I'm not in a position to say. I don't have that experience. I do believe that when both sets of parents can commit themselves to working together, a fully open adoption is better for the child than closed. I also think that as far as the first mother (or first parents) is concerned, it is probably healthier to be able to work through situations and feelings as they arise than to cope without knowing. Although I think it would depend very much on on the personality of the mother and the circumstances surrounding the surrender.

However, women with "crisis" pregnancies should be not inviegled into open adoptions with false promises and misinformation. That is dishonest and wrong, and only creates more suffering.

Happy Birthmom did anyone challenge your position ...

2012-01-28T00:10:39.803-05:00

Happy Birthmom did anyone challenge your position that you were not mature enough to parent your child? Did anyone discuss how you could work through your fear? Did anyone offer you a foster setting for you and your child to go together until you got your parenting sea legs? And maybe most importantly did anyone suggest you read books about the pain adopted persons go through because of adoption. If the answer to any of these questions is no, you may end up as devastated as many of us mothers that lost children up adoption.

@Happy Birthmom, I just hope that your son is as h...

2012-01-27T16:58:36.069-05:00

@Happy Birthmom,
I just hope that your son is as happy about the situation as you are. Not all children are happy to have been relinquished and given to another family to raise.

I am a first mother/birthmother of an open adoptio...

2012-01-27T15:25:24.103-05:00

I am a first mother/birthmother of an open adoption. I am 22 years old, and gave up my son (no, I do not call him my "birthson") at age 18. I would be lying if I said that I don't think of my son everyday... I do. I would be lying if I said that I feel complete without him... I don't. However, choosing to give him up was one of the best (but hardest) decisions that I have ever made. Although I know you would disagree with me, Lorraine, I would not take offense to my son thanking me for putting him in the hands of the best couple I know. At age 18, I was simply not ready to be a parent. I can admit that, though it pains me to do so, because it's true. I hope that I never regret the decisions I made concerning my son, as I feel that many of the birthmothers on this site do. I really feel sorry for you all - my heart goes out to you. Although I have pain in my heart, the love in my heart supersedes all the pain. I wish all first mothers/birthmothers could feel the way I do. And I wish all first/birth mothers could have the same beautiful, open relationship that I have with my son's ("adoptive") family.

@2ndmom, I see, I was already thinking that you we...

2012-01-27T11:56:48.748-05:00

@2ndmom, I see, I was already thinking that you were incomplete on account of somebody else's privacy rights.
Thanks for informing us that the situation is a little bit more complicated.

"Yep, kept siblings, pretty close to her in a...

2012-01-27T10:25:21.677-05:00

"Yep, kept siblings, pretty close to her in age too it seems, parent(s) show themselves parenting material, best sort of case to try a test-case concerning a child's privacy-based right to live with bio-relatives vs. adoption law with."

I'm struggling to address this without violating my daughter's first mom's privacy. First Mom doesn't have custody of the siblings. They are being raised by their dad and step mom. (Dad is the step father of the oldest and biological father of the youngest).

@ Anonymous (the last one) - I just wanted to say ...

2012-01-27T10:21:31.973-05:00

@ Anonymous (the last one) - I just wanted to say how very sorry I am to read your post. Heartwrenching. I hope one day he will find his way back to you. Hugs, xxx

@Mei-Ling, going on vacation to your bios as a t...

2012-01-27T01:48:14.262-05:00

@Mei-Ling,

going on vacation to your bios as a try-out, after a couple of visits, to experience how it is to live with them, is not really the same as being abandoned by the adopters.

Yep, kept siblings, pretty close to her in age too it seems, parent(s) show themselves parenting material, best sort of case to try a test-case concerning a child's privacy-based right to live with bio-relatives vs. adoption law with.
Otherwise I would not have started about letting her go back and all.

@Maryanne "I am concerned about actual child...

2012-01-27T01:25:57.161-05:00

@Maryanne

"I am concerned about actual children who have been living in a family with people they relate to as parents for many years."

What's the problem with them?

"Do you have any children?"

A rather intimate question, but no, I do have lots of younger relatives though.

" Can you imagine what it would be like to tell them that they had to go live with some other family?"

Yep, that's a good reason not to do that. Setting up strawmen is not going to convince anybody.

"Can you imagine as a child this happening to you?"

I did imagine something very close to that, but she died, trapped in the lie...

"As Robin said, children need security and stability, and being taken back by the natural parents could be very traumatic in the majority of cases. It would not cure the abandonment, but add to it as another set of parents let them go."

Is that your opinion or do you have any data to support that claim? I am thinking of a slow traject, not a sudden transition.

"Children should not be shuffled around at the whim of adults. That is one of the worst features of foster care, lack of stability, and you would like to introduce that into adoption??"

Actually, I would like to let well-managed fostercare outcompete adoption. Unlike adoption fostercare is the name of a widely diverse forms of care, some of which can offer that stability as well.

"Children do not live in theories but in families. Some of those families are adoptive families. Whatever harm was done in the original surrender cannot be fixed by doing even more harm to the child who has formed family bonds with her adoptive family. Even if the original adoption should never have happened, you cannot erase years of a child's life and the connections formed during those years by returning them to the "rightful owner"."

Ever tried doing that carefully?

"What would result in the real world from natural parents demanding their children back would not be a happy solution, but a horrendous custody fight and more pain and suffering for the child."

Who is talking about parents demanding?

"Advocating taking children away from their adoptive parents as a solution is certainly not helping the cause of open records for adult adoptees. In fact, it is one of the favorite scare techniques of our opponents to say this is just what would happen if any openness is allowed."

Ah, that may explain the difference, we are not living in the same spot, here the issues that seem to play the last year or so: adoption annulment for people living reunited with bios improves, 15 months after birth to stop the adoption is way TOO SHORT, foster care, the default in case of relinquishing for adoption process as a superior alternative to adoption in its own right,protection of teen birth mothers... Open records is a past station here.

"The question I have is rather, if you would ...

2012-01-27T00:59:22.059-05:00

"The question I have is rather, if you would be convinced that a return of your daughter to her original identity would be in her interest, or her honest desire, would you have the strength to support her in that? Would you have the strength to show her that relinquishment can be done out of love?

I truly hope so. Her First Mom relinquished her out of love and the belief that she was doing the best thing she could by giving her up. I would hope I would be able to have that same amount of faith and courage.

"Sorry, if I have been a bit too harsh to you, but I was dealing with a colleague's saughter's death, and the frustrations from that came out towards you."

Thank you! I am learning from being here. I hope I haven't been harsh with you as well.

2ndmom, you convinced me that you tried to do th...

2012-01-27T00:21:45.436-05:00

2ndmom,

you convinced me that you tried to do the best you could.
The only really convincing defense of adoption of a minor too young to express her own desires was that it had been an adopt or let die- situation. The question I have is rather, if you would be convinced that a return of your daughter to her original identity would be in her interest, or her her honest desire, would you have the strength to support her in that? Would you have the strength to show her that relinquishment can be done out of love?

Sorry, if I have been a bit too harsh to you, but I was dealing with a colleague's saughter's death, and the frustrations from that came out towards you.

"My daughter does have two younger siblings w...

2012-01-26T23:50:32.607-05:00

"My daughter does have two younger siblings with whom she has a very close relationship with."

Wait. The daughter was given up but not the siblings kept after?

Why? O.o

If it was possible for the parents to keep her siblings, why not her?

"A child past her 12th birtday can be assumed...

2012-01-26T23:48:04.222-05:00

"A child past her 12th birtday can be assumed to be old enough to understand and to reason to a degree and thus to decide for herself."

Well, yes?

But the point is that a child, after growing up immersed in the adoptive family, wouldn't necessarily want to be sent back to a family s/he has NEVER grown up with.