tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post8529288609273555810..comments2024-03-14T17:59:30.786-04:00Comments on [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: Utah's laws designed to thwart birth fathersLorraine Duskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-79361323081627429792014-01-04T18:20:59.789-05:002014-01-04T18:20:59.789-05:00"I did not mean to speak FOR any adoptees. Yo..."I did not mean to speak FOR any adoptees. You are capable of speaking for yourself, but no one adoptee or group of adoptees can speak for ALL adoptees either, no more than any one first mother can speak for all"<br /><br />I think that there is one way I can speak for all adoptees.<br /><br />ALL adoptees are born into one family, are then legally separated from that family and are then become a memberof an another family, legally "as if" born to that family. <br /><br />Thus each adoptee is born to one family and "as if" born to another family. <br /><br />Each adoptee then has to work out the contradictions of being "born to one family" and "as if born to another family". It is hardly surprising that a large number of closed adoption adoptees want nothing to do with that original family because it is much easier to just deal with one. These latter type of adoptees are the ones considered ideal by the world. Thus, the ideal adoptee is often one who, in effect, wishes adoption was never in their life. Also, my observation is that the less one thinks about their adoption, the more they love it lol.<br /><br />Part of the problem is that what we might not praise in the general world is often praised in an adopted person so it can be hard to know what is a succesful adoption or not. I believe a lot more research needs to be done. Adoption is sold to expectant mothers as if it is a simple trade up for a child and even in the most content adoptee, I don't think that is the case. <br /><br />Also, I've been on adption forums and one can see from reading AP posts that even in their good open adoptions, it is not that simple for the child. cbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-72539365390881042132012-01-02T10:40:04.106-05:002012-01-02T10:40:04.106-05:00My parents were born near the beginning of the las...My parents were born near the beginning of the last century, before World War I.<br />I grew up hearing many of their stories and was able to get glimpses of their early lives which I understood in an intellectual way, and which engaged my sympathy, but the visceral nature of their experiences remained theirs alone. As L. P. Hartley wrote, "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there."<br /><br />My child's adoptive mother is eight years older than me.HeavenstoBetsynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-6672508494144283462012-01-01T18:15:51.247-05:002012-01-01T18:15:51.247-05:00While my daughter's adoptive parents were only...While my daughter's adoptive parents were only a few years older than me, my granddaughter's parents are just a few years younger than me. And her adoptive mother, from roughly the era I surrendered my daughter, understands me, and I her, quite well.Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-33535941638385957282012-01-01T12:17:23.398-05:002012-01-01T12:17:23.398-05:00theadoptedones - The couple who adopted my daughte...theadoptedones - The couple who adopted my daughter are almost the exact same ages as my parents. That realization didn't hit me until about three years ago. I guess I blocked it...or something like that.<br /><br />M.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-69044462809992977762012-01-01T11:09:36.188-05:002012-01-01T11:09:36.188-05:00I am not sure if I am different than other adoptee...I am not sure if I am different than other adoptees or not. My parents were the age of my non-adopted peers, grandparents. If I am in the norm then many of us were brought up by parents close in age to our mothers parents - same era - same societal mores.<br /><br />Adoption was the last options and only after many years of trying did they turn to adoption. Both of my parents were born well before the 1929 crash that started the depression...we were raised by the same societal mentality. Thankfully I had reality based parents do did not believe following societal rules blindly was the be all end all and challenged whether things were right or not, but they were definitely NOT the norm in their peer group.<br /><br />So ending - perhaps adoptees from the BSE have a view of what life was like being a teenager/young adult in the 50's and 60's, that is closer to your reality than you think, as to our understanding of how society operated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-40472500079538787582012-01-01T08:43:44.367-05:002012-01-01T08:43:44.367-05:00I like "morally acceptable". I was think...I like "morally acceptable". I was thinking along the lines of "socially mandated", but "morally" acceptable" is closer to the mark.<br />Lots of interesting comments here. Like Gail I can understand why younger people might have difficulty grasping the social mores of the fifties and sixties, especially as they affected pregnant teens. It is hard to imagine a time when so much was taboo and yet there was so much surface glitz and titillation, the conflict of profoundly puritanical attitudes and increasing wealth. The social and family world was ruled by conformity, consumerism and traditional 'family values'. Sex, particularly sex outside of marriage was taboo, as was <br />mental illness and anything else that was considered to <br />deviate from the norm. Of course there was a lot going on <br />under the surface - the civl rights movement began in the <br />fifties, "Lolita" created it's own stir and the 'Beat Generation' heralded in the sexual revolution of the sixties. Unfortunately mummies and daddies and social and religious institutions either wouldn't or couldn't catch up with the zeitgeist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-21484347373438020752011-12-31T22:25:37.878-05:002011-12-31T22:25:37.878-05:00In trying to understand the BSE era it is importan...In trying to understand the BSE era it is important to know that getting women under control was a major issue. The dears got very uppity during the war and after. The largest per capita divorce rate was in 1946. Read Marilyn French for a visceral feel for the era. I gave my mother her book, The Woman's Room. She cried and told me I'd never know. And I didn't.<br /><br />All of the girls who got pg simply got caught. It wasn't as if others weren't doing it. Abortion was a hell of a lot easier. It could be done quickly and was easier to cover up. A few days in hell and some emotional/hormonal upset. Delivering a baby is forever and all those women knew it. Even the nuns. That's why it was a punishment and still is. For everyone.SameOldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02824386757349786724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-73432901915241614572011-12-31T18:17:40.959-05:002011-12-31T18:17:40.959-05:00Morally acceptable.
It just dawned on me that th...Morally acceptable. <br /><br />It just dawned on me that this might be the phrase you are looking for. Yes, it was, but only because it was punishment.OceanBreeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-74651391841711786342011-12-31T17:31:42.087-05:002011-12-31T17:31:42.087-05:00Think you've gotten much closer to the core of...Think you've gotten much closer to the core of it, Maryanne, and it's very hard to explain if you weren't actually <br /><br />a) there and that person<br />b) attached to the family where the event took place<br /><br />Robin and Barbara, I'm sorry to disagree with your clarification that what families did after learning about their daughter's pregnancy was socially acceptable. Not really. It was a secret prison sentence, not a remedy. You served the sentence and you got your life back. Your child supposedly went to highly suitable people, something you were supposed to be grateful for. As for you and your family, your actions were so vile, they had to be covered up forever. As I hinted in one of my previous comments, one of my parents actually engineered to keep the other parent from knowing anything about the situation and the grandchild. Forever. <br /><br />Socially acceptable means you showed or displayed what you did in some fashion and that society approved. This was a pact with your keepers to hide everything and to eventually be released for your shame and the shame brought on your family.OceanBreeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-21216792140023518022011-12-31T15:19:14.376-05:002011-12-31T15:19:14.376-05:00I think it very hard for those who did not grow up...I think it very hard for those who did not grow up in the 50s and early 60s to even imagine what life was like then. There was a long list of things not socially acceptable to talk about to anyone, but that went on anyhow with great harm to many.<br /><br />Unwed sex and adoption was just one; others were pedophilia, and we all know now how that flourished under cover of secrecy, spousal abuse, alcoholism, divorce, infidelity, insanity, homosexuality...the list goes on and on. <br /><br />It was somehow worse to talk about these things than to actually do them. As long as nobody mentioned it, it was not happening. If anyone did talk, it was "kill the messenger." Gossip was whispered all over, but God help you if you said to anyone that Mom hid liquor bottles in the closet, or that Aunt Carrie was always bruised because her husband beat her, or that cousin Clare was not really away visiting a sick aunt the last semester of high school.<br /><br />People knew there were homes for unwed mothers, but nobody thought they knew anyone who sent a daughter there, just as everyone knew a bachelor uncle and his roommate, but nobody knew any gay men in their social circle. If you do not name it or see it, it is not there, and had to do with some lower class of "other people", not your family or friends.<br /><br />This is how it was in my family, and most of my friend's families as well. The silence was corrosive and deafening. Nostalgia for that era misses this, but there was a lot of darkness and pain along with the American Dream after the War.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-20093680208190549632011-12-31T14:29:03.019-05:002011-12-31T14:29:03.019-05:00Barbara T wrote: "But AFTER the pregnancy occ...Barbara T wrote: "But AFTER the pregnancy occurred it was socially acceptable to send your daughter off in secrecy and shame to place her baby for adoption. That was the only thing accepted once the pregnancy occurred. "<br /><br />I agree with this and that is what I was saying in my comment. My wording was just a bit different.<br /><br />I mentioned that I had a recent doctor's appointment. Well, I was being checked for a potentially life-threatening medical condition that I inherited from my mother. If I had never found her I wouldn't even know that I was predisposed to this condition. Don't you just love closed adoption and sealed records {insert sarcasm}?<br /><br />Anyhoo, I intend to have a fabulous 2012 and wish FMF writers and readers the same.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-15033702889786119082011-12-31T13:04:15.308-05:002011-12-31T13:04:15.308-05:00Robin, I have always found your comments to be inf...Robin, I have always found your comments to be informative and of much value here...same for the other adoptees who post from their point of view, as well.maybehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07067284504038707207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-44852194808929792872011-12-31T12:04:51.456-05:002011-12-31T12:04:51.456-05:00By society expecting us to surrender our childrn t...By society expecting us to surrender our childrn they did indeed accept it as a way to shame and silence us.Janetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-2438673019490772102011-12-31T11:55:39.492-05:002011-12-31T11:55:39.492-05:00Robin,
I always read your posts here and I too do...Robin,<br /><br />I always read your posts here and I too do not want you to stop. I learn alot from you and you have every right to give your opinion. By saying "socially acceptable" I don't think you were entirely wrong. If society had cared about us they wouldn't have sent us away.<br /><br /><br />It appears that many of us did try to forget and keep the secret. I know if I hadn't been reunited with my daughter I would have never gone searching for a place like FMF.<br /><br />My question is, "What do we do now?" It has to go way beyond blogging. I want to know what I can do today to inform people about adoption. How do we in numbers get the message out. We need to let everyone know about our own private hell.<br /><br />Secrecy is our enemy!!Janetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-13583275599378982952011-12-31T11:35:06.950-05:002011-12-31T11:35:06.950-05:00To maryanne's comment:
DITTO.To maryanne's comment: <br /><br />DITTO.Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-52975902106324052162011-12-31T11:30:13.071-05:002011-12-31T11:30:13.071-05:00Robin....Words here are so often jumped on, as Jan...Robin....Words here are so often jumped on, as Jane and I have so acutely and at times painfully, learned. <br /><br />Don't let this minor skirmish make you leave; we welcome all perspectives and the commentary would be a lot less informative if adoptees like yourself didn't add to the discussion. You are very honest about your feelings, without being unnecessarly accusatory. So while I know some of this must have stung a bit, hang in there. And stay. And Happy New Year! My very best wishes to you. <br />loLorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-6530727016616146042011-12-31T11:30:09.434-05:002011-12-31T11:30:09.434-05:00We all have different writing styles and sometimes...We all have different writing styles and sometimes misunderstand what others are saying. We are not mind readers to know that when you say "x" what you really mean is "y". None of us really "know it all", least of all me, but we all know something and should keep the dialogue going. Disagreeing is not silencing, it is just another opinion and everyone has one.<br /><br />Say what you mean, mean what you say, and choose your words carefully to best express what it is you really want others to hear. Statements like:"I think society should be hard on surrendering mothers" or "Relinquishment was not socially unacceptable during the BSE." are hard to interpret differently from what they say at face value and in context. This is why such a flurry of disagreement with these statements followed.<br /><br />I think we all have something to learn from each other if we keep listening and clarifying.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-7501219728813093552011-12-31T10:36:20.481-05:002011-12-31T10:36:20.481-05:00I can understand how difficult it might be to imag...I can understand how difficult it might be to imagine life as a pregnant teen in the BSE. It’s difficult for me sometimes to think about the fact that my grandmother couldn’t vote because she was female and a dear friend of mine couldn’t get health insurance coverage for the birth of her child because she wasn’t married and additionally had to leave her teaching position before she appeared pregnant. I lived the BSE and I know exactly what life was like and Maryanne and Lorraine have done an excellent job with their descriptions. Lorraine, you made me laugh at your mention of having “gone all the way.” It brought back memories. Remember the bases – first, second, and third? Yes, sex was a dirty word back in the day. In addition to the shame, denial, secrecy and lies other barriers existed and maybe those who’ve lived the life can help me out here to help those who really don’t get it. Poverty was a huge factor. The only way I could buy anything was with real money (cold cash). Credit cards didn’t exist and banks didn’t give loans to pregnant teens. Housing was a problem. Again, cold cash was needed along with two months rent. Day care didn’t exist in my area and even if it did cold cash was needed to pay for it. The only way to get the cold cash was to get a job and the only jobs available to uneducated teens were minimum wage jobs that wouldn’t pay enough to pay for day care even if it had existed. So those of us who lacked a family support structure were trapped by adoption.Gailnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-58338420329231245702011-12-31T09:38:10.835-05:002011-12-31T09:38:10.835-05:00There is another way for discourse than to put oth...There is another way for discourse than to put others down. Your thoughts are not the one true thought. We all get it in our own way. And sometimes with the help of another our opinions take on new structure. <br />What I truly want is for a young mother to know all the potential damage she is doing to herself and her child with relinquishment. And if knowing the harm to all, she still chooses adoption, I would hope she is treated with respect. So I was wrong to say she should be treated harshly by society. <br />I didn't have to live in the BSE to know that pregnancy before marriage was socially unexceptable. But AFTER the pregnancy occurred it was socially acceptable to send your daughter off in secrecy and shame to place her baby for adoption. That was the only thing accepted once the pregnancy occurred. <br />And things were no different in my family in 1980. Yes, secrecy is the true enemy. I had the same reaction to "Milk" when I saw it. <br />And Robin, don't let know it alls try to silence you. We need your prospective often!!Barbara Thavishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646036820037271522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-48017719562722942772011-12-31T09:37:45.885-05:002011-12-31T09:37:45.885-05:00I was surprised this morning when I came onto FMF ...I was surprised this morning when I came onto FMF to find a barrage of comments berating me for using the term "socially acceptable". Anyone could have tactfully pointed out that this was not the correct term that the issue was that you had only one choice. This is not the first time something like this has happened to me at FMF. There are even a few people who it seems no matter what I write come back with a rebuttal telling me I am wrong. <br /><br />A while back I had decided to stop posting comments at FMF since this is a place for first mothers rather than adoptees. Then unexpectedly, Lorraine wrote a comment saying how much she appreciates my commentary and feels that many other readers do likewise.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-37286419051833444262011-12-31T07:55:59.859-05:002011-12-31T07:55:59.859-05:00I think that the general public has pretty much al...I think that the general public has pretty much always been biased in favor of family preservation as far as their opinion of mothers who surrender. Yes, adoption and adoptive parents are often sentimentalized and glorified, but that is strictly from the adoptive parent end of it. The public assumes that celebrities and others are adopting children who are already unwanted and homeless because of unfit or uncaring parents, or they just think that adoptees come from the cabbage patch. First mothers are ignored, not accepted.<br /><br />Back in the day, nobody's parents, when asked where little Debbie was, proudly told the neighbors "she's in the Florence Critendon Home, about to give up her child for adoption. Isn't that wonderful?" It was a shame, and if you never talked about it, it never happened.<br /><br />Even today, young mothers who surrendered recently are often shocked at what society really thinks of them, after having been counseled what a noble thing they are doing in surrendering. This includes moms in open adoptions who want to talk about their child but are met with disdain and cruelty.<br /><br />Today and yesterday, how many of us have been told by members of society "I could never do that".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-9757568230605939912011-12-31T07:49:54.926-05:002011-12-31T07:49:54.926-05:00OceanBreez wrote:"No, Robin--you *really* don...OceanBreez wrote:"No, Robin--you *really* don't get it."<br /><br />You are right. I don't get it. I have just had to live the consequences of it my whole life through no fault of my own.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-54111997656479083992011-12-31T07:41:48.615-05:002011-12-31T07:41:48.615-05:00I had thought that the only option society offered...I had thought that the only option society offered to unmarried pregnant girls and women at that time was to give the child up for adoption. Maybe referring to that as "socially acceptable" is the wrong term to use.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-76944057089451029842011-12-30T23:25:32.273-05:002011-12-30T23:25:32.273-05:00Yes, Secrecy is the enemy. Secrecy was the whole r...Yes, Secrecy is the enemy. Secrecy was the whole reason the BSE happened as it did. It had nothing to do with acceptance of the act of surrendering a child. It had everything to do with shame, denial, and lies. <br /><br />What people say now, 40 or more years later to us when told we have reunited with a relinquished child has very little to do with how totally unacceptable the whole thing was when we surrendered. The whole point was that nobody should know that you had sex, got pregnant, had an abortion or gave up a child. Sex was dirty and had to be denied and buried in silence.<br />There was no acceptance. We were told never to tell anyone, to act as if we never had a child. That is hardly "acceptance."<br /><br />I think it is pretty normal for people to ask if your relinquished son or daughter had a good home when you tell them your story. I just say, "no, he did not, but is all right now in spite of that". And the conversation goes on from there.<br /><br />I agree with those who said there is not really a chance of another BSE, because the world has changed so greatly. What some Fundamentalist religious and for profit agencies are doing is scary, but it really only touches a fraction of the young women who were sucked in during the BSE, and the whole culture of secrecy is crumbling.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-47935295728793852292011-12-30T21:31:06.935-05:002011-12-30T21:31:06.935-05:00"I have concerns about a return to large numb..."I have concerns about a return to large numbers of single mothers being pressured/coerced to give up their children because I think that adoption is becoming very much in vogue these days."<br /><br />Based on what? Adoption may be in vogue because more couples are infertile and are more open to adoption than they used to be, more celebrities are adopting, and we hear more about adoption through the Internet and the adoption community. That doesn't actually translate into skyrocketing numbers of women relinquishing. What is your evidenceÉ <br /><br />The adoption blogosphere gives a horribly skewed picture of what is actually happening in adoption. Something to keep remembering when you want to tear your hair out. About the only trend that seriously disturbs me is the Christian adoption movement. That is something that could definitely lead to baldness. But my concern for women in the developed world is less and if a couple decides they want to place after deeply considering their own lives, resources, and needs, I have no objection and do not think anyone else should either.OceanBreeznoreply@blogger.com