tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post1364303598405733889..comments2024-03-14T17:59:30.786-04:00Comments on [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: Is it a 'Birth' Certificate or Certificate of Title?Lorraine Duskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-37574324742724407922013-04-01T16:07:04.712-04:002013-04-01T16:07:04.712-04:00COMMENTS CLOSED<b>COMMENTS CLOSED</b>Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-76628451112628128422011-08-31T21:38:06.218-04:002011-08-31T21:38:06.218-04:00August 31, 2011
Even though I've been saying ...August 31, 2011<br /><br />Even though I've been saying a long time I think it's necessary to reiterate the issue which I do so respectfully. Factually the issue is that of asserting that EVERYBODY must understand this crucial point. <br /><br />Those who transact adoptions usually for a living--who includes lawyers and judges who preside over adoption's legal proceedings, social workers, and a few others--do NOT want adoption records to be opened for this reason. They write and so record false information usually about the first/natural mother, which means that they essentially lie, in her natural-born child's adoption record which is the REAL reason they (the lawyers and others) want these records to remain concealed/sealed. The lawyers and others don't want themselves and their lies to be exposed, in other words, because they could not only be sued civilly but maybe prosecuted criminally by the first mothers of adoptees. <br /><br />As a natural mother I feel horrible that my adopted-out son as well as other adoptees is/are denied his/their birth-right, to basic information, because of my irresponsibility. Every day I kick myself in the teeth because I didn't have the courage to stand up to those who were bullying me to surrender him--Colleen Burnham and David McConkie of CAS of Utah--and fight for my child. <br /><br />What I'm saying is that whether it's one, two, or more birth certificates that an adoptee wants from his or her adoption records then this is what he or she should get with no questions asked. They should not have to jump through hoops to satisfy some perverse lawyer and corrupt judge to gain access to their birth-right of information. <br /><br />Despite everything the lawyers and judges among others have no scruples about making adoptees beg for their basic information any more than they have qualms about making us first mothers crawl for a morsel of information about our adoption-lost child. It's injustice across-the-board. <br /><br />Kathy Caudle<br />Natural Momsoomahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09947334871185883867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-54438204134334843532011-08-31T10:58:30.945-04:002011-08-31T10:58:30.945-04:00READ this blog from Peach about the ridiculous pol...READ this blog from Peach about the ridiculous policy of creating fradulenet birth certificates. Original, my eye!<br /><br /><a href="http://peachneitherherenorthere.blogspot.com/2010/08/its-not-fine.html" rel="nofollow">It's Not Fine </a>Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-58543052891629142482011-08-30T12:38:18.269-04:002011-08-30T12:38:18.269-04:00After reading this, suddenly I'm glad I waited...After reading this, suddenly I'm glad I waited 11 months before having my son be adopted into a new family. That way I have in my possession the original birth certificate if they were to decide they wanted it changed - and I'm sure they did. They do want an open adoption but having that piece of paper (two copies actually) makes me feel a little better that some day he may be able to have those documents that anywhere else he may never be able to see again. Unfortunately, due to age restrictions (we had him very young in life) my son's fathers name is not on the birth certificate but if he wants to know his name or where he is I'm sure I can help point him in the right direction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-54398349098965487702011-08-30T08:02:20.911-04:002011-08-30T08:02:20.911-04:00Sandy, I think that the handling of birth certific...Sandy, I think that the handling of birth certificates may differ from state to state. I hope other people from other states will check in on this.<br /><br />In NJ, they are kept in at least two places, the county and the state capitol in Trenton. When babies were commonly born at home, there was a record in the town. I looked up my youngest Aunt, born here, and a stillborn that my grandmother had, in town records. <br /><br />The place where I was born, and all my kids except Mike, is the County Seat, so all our records are there, as well as in Trenton.<br />Death certificates are always in the town where the death occurred which makes them hard to look for when you do not know where a person died.<br /><br />If you need a birth certificate, you can request one from either county or state, showing ID. And they give you a stamped official copy. Here in Morris County you can also request your child's BC at any age, and just have to show ID. and know what is on the BC. I got one for my son in CA by filling out a form and paying a small fee, and sent it to him to get a passport, no problems at all. This is of course a raised child, no adoption involved.<br /><br />I needed my birth certificate to get my driver's license in the 60s.I needed my kids' BCs to register them for school, for Little League, and they needed them to get their driver's license. This was all prior to 9/11. Back in my parents' day, some people could use baptismal certificates as ID if the birth did not get registered or the BC could not be located. That would not work any more.<br /><br />All NJ births are registered in Trenton as well as the county, and then when there is an adoption, the original is attached or cross-referenced to the amended by number. The person who found my son many years ago did so by getting into Trenton vital stats under the guise of doing genealogy (which would never work today) and she knew what to look for, so with the info about the original which I had she was able to access the amended certificate and my son's new name and parents' name and address. <br /><br />Whatever the original intent of birth certificates was, which would date back to the 19th century in most places, today it is crucial as ID. My father, born in 1907, had a BC issued by the town and needed it all his life for various ID purposes including eligibility for Social Security. <br />My mother-in-law, born in Europe and lied about her age as women often did then, had trouble proving her age for social security because of no BC and immigration records were not correct.<br /><br />I think it stretch to say that birth certificates do not belong to the person named on them, but solely to the state, when in fact without a birth certificate today the person does not legally exist. Of course the state holds the original, but the right to obtain a copy is crucial to individual citizenship. And as we have seen again and again, for some adoptees the ABC is not sufficient to get a passport and for some security clearances.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-72875132557263814922011-08-29T19:29:27.096-04:002011-08-29T19:29:27.096-04:00http://answers.yahoo.com/activity;_ylt=AgP7fGUIhEi...http://answers.yahoo.com/activity;_ylt=AgP7fGUIhEig9vk5DU_Z3Zbsy6IX;_ylv=3?show=gaB5Z8jSaa&link=question#yan-questions-answers<br /><br />Sorry for the break, there seems to be a girl on Yahoo Answers insisting on putting her baby in the claws of some Colorado adopters... Please, if you can help her, or her child will get an ABC too.Theodorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14634057445114838262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-75337903670245490722011-08-29T19:22:55.333-04:002011-08-29T19:22:55.333-04:00One of the problems with adoptee birth certificate...One of the problems with adoptee birth certificates is that, because of the government's actions, they have assumed a sort of mystical proportion. A birth certificate is the property of the state (actually the county) in which one is born. When a birth occurs, it The BC is supposed to be a factual, legal representation of the events of the birth. They are called Vital Public Records, because that is exactly what they are. They are records, owned by the state, of the activities of their citizenry, for planning purposes.<br /><br />The birth certificates were not created as a way to prove identity. They were created as a way for the government to track its citizenry, particularly the males as potential warriors. With these statistics, they could then plan all sorts of things. One curious outcome of the birth certificates was playgrounds because the military noted that country boys were bigger and healthier than city boys. Bigger and healthier boys make better soldiers. A city solution to the problem of outdoor exercise was playgrounds. <br /><br />The issuance of birth certificates is a legal process. The person who assists in the delivery, whether nurse/physician/midwife has the responsibility of insuring that the birth is registered with the county clerk's office who issues the birth certificate. The CC's office sends a record of the birth to the state office of vital statistics, where they are then sent to the federal government. But, the Original birth certificate, the certified copy of which we can all go into our courthouse and obtain, NEVER LEAVES THE COUNTY. <br /><br />In any circumstances except adoption if there is a correction to be made, the proof of error is sent to the state. The state weighs the evidence, approves the correction, and sends a notice to the county that a change is approved. There is a notation added to the original birth certificate that there is a change on file, and when the birth certificate with the amendment is copied, it is printed on legal sized paper so that the amendment can be attached to the bottom of the unaltered original birth certificate. There is NEVER a change made on the original, and the original is NEVER destroyed. <br />In the case of adoption, the original is placed in the sealed court files that are kept in the Circuit Clerk's office, where all court records are maintained, and a totally new document is created to replace the one that is sealed. <br /><br />It always amazes me that people think that their birth certificate is something that belongs to them. It simply doesn't. In fact, it wasn't until they began using them as proof of AGE requirement that they became an issue at all. I know one woman, my peer and a natural mother whose only child was surrendered, who until a few years ago HAD NEVER EVEN GOTTEN A COPY OF HER OWN BIRTH CERTIFICATE. She did as we talked about it, because she recognized that it could be problematic if she didn't now due to Homeland Security, but had never needed one for any reason until then.<br /><br />My suggestion would be to treat the birth certificate amendment in adoption the exact same way that they are treated in any other amendment situation...with the true facts of the parentage on it, and an amendment attached, showing that there was an adoption. It doesn't need to show any reason, nor moral judgments...it just is an amendment.<br /><br />Operating from the premise that your birth certificate belongs to you, that it is your property and the government is withholding it from you is simply erroneous. It never did belong to you. It has always belonged to the government. To me it would make more sense to attack the lies and fraud that is currently mandated would be more appropriate. Sealing lies doesn't make the lies right. The truth is not shameful...the lies are.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17088288948654864117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-84567053918388697752011-08-29T12:38:34.587-04:002011-08-29T12:38:34.587-04:00Thanks for the links, Anon. It's a shame that ...Thanks for the links, Anon. It's a shame that the US doesn't follow the rest the UK and Canada and outlaw anonymous donors. The article suggests that it doesn't because fewer people would be willing to donate if it were possible that their offspring would show up.<br /><br />I think another reason is that legal parents of these children fear the donors might show up. I saw a PBS documentary where legal parents discuss this fear. And, unbelievably, a young woman created via a sperm donor expressed fear that her sperm donor might show up and claim her.Jane Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05669797756463841249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-50906801206197090682011-08-29T10:02:01.068-04:002011-08-29T10:02:01.068-04:00The problem is that that way things stand now the ...The problem is that that way things stand now the distinction between legal parentage and biological parentage is conflated. <br />I think that future birth certificates should include a space for ART related information (such as names of donors or surrogates) because anything that is a part of a person's conception is a part of their history, and as such deserves to be recorded on their original BC. <br />But I agree there also needs to be a separate certificate of legal parentage to be used for practical purposes until the child attains majority. <br /><br />Two links: <br />"What the Kids Really Want" http://www.bionews.org.uk/page_103648.asp<br />Olivia Pratten's site http://www.canadiandonoroffspring.ca/<br />cdo_DCA_olivia.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-38136446529988530402011-08-28T23:39:33.860-04:002011-08-28T23:39:33.860-04:00Re: Falsifying OBCs in this day and age. I suppose...Re: Falsifying OBCs in this day and age. I suppose it could be done..maybe in small hospitals in small towns? Maybe? I know today when entering good sized hospitals, even in mid-size towns or large hospitals in large cities..one has to show identification...DL, state ID, insurance card, medicaid card and a social security number. I don't know of anyone that I know (including myself) recently, who was able to be admitted into a hospital without identification...certainly one is asked for a social security number today. So am curious how an adoptive parent could get their name on an OBC today. Most of that information on the OBC being gathered from the info that's gathered at time of admission. I may be wrong, but am going to assume that.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-28625700392770902202011-08-28T19:36:43.381-04:002011-08-28T19:36:43.381-04:00In case somebody cares, Jane's 3:33post descri...In case somebody cares, Jane's 3:33post describes my sort of history...Theodorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14634057445114838262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-67921095534365300542011-08-28T15:33:37.531-04:002011-08-28T15:33:37.531-04:00Regarding putting adoptive parents names on origin...Regarding putting adoptive parents names on original birth certificates: I recall a natural mother telling me that when her daughter was born, she entered the hospital using her sister's name. She gave her sister's name as the mother and her sister's husband's name as the father to the vital stats registrar. This was all engineered by the mother of natural mother and the sister "to avoid family shame but keep the baby in the family." <br /><br />Years later when the sister and brother-in-law were divorcing, the brother-in-law hauled the natural mother into court to testify she was the mother of the child and he was not the father in an attempt to avoid paying support. The judge made him pay support anyway.<br /><br />The natural mother went along with the subterfuge until the child's 21st birthday when the natural mother told her the truth.Jane Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05669797756463841249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-74201073250176321362011-08-28T15:21:07.588-04:002011-08-28T15:21:07.588-04:00Anon asked about laws requiring mothers' husba...Anon asked about laws requiring mothers' husbands to be listed as fathers on birth certificates even though the fathers were in another country at the time of conception. Oregon had such a law although it allowed husbands to file legal actions contesting paternity. <br /><br />Oregon also had laws which "conclusively presumed" that if a woman was living with her husband at the time of conception, he was the father even if he had had a vasectomy and the child looked nothing like him. With the availability of DNA testing, the laws changed and husbands can contest paternity. These cases usually come up when the parties divorce and the husband wants to avoid child support. <br /><br />Some woman's organizations opposed laws allowing husbands to contest paternity, arguing the identity of biological fathers is irrelevant and children deserve support from husbands since they have been more or lass in the paternal role. Needless to say, many men disagree. Being cuckold is bad enough but making a man support the child of the guy who seduced his wife is adding insult to injury.Jane Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05669797756463841249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-88713707939911807352011-08-28T11:19:57.459-04:002011-08-28T11:19:57.459-04:00Peach thanks! That is awful. Seriously bad practic...Peach thanks! That is awful. Seriously bad practice if those agency people were telling the truth about what they do.<br /><br />The registering of births must work differently in OK. Here the adoption agency has nothing to do with what goes on the OBC. The mother fills out a form in the hospital, just as if she were keeping the child, and this goes to the state Bureau of Vital Statistics who register the birth officially. The agency gets a copy for their files, I believe, but have nothing to say about what goes on it, as Birth certificates are issued by the Bureau of Vital Statistics, not the adoption agency.<br /><br />When an adoption is finalized in court, as it must be, the original birth certificate is sealed at the Bureau of Vital Stats, and the amended one is issued by them. Again, the agency has no say in that. I thought this was true for most states, but maybe not. <br /><br />If the adoptive parents are listed as parents on the OBC, then it seems there would be no need for a legal adoption. That was the whole point in black market cases.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-59140187072653278972011-08-28T10:58:09.739-04:002011-08-28T10:58:09.739-04:00Many prominent legislators have adopted in United ...Many prominent legislators have adopted in United States.<br />McCain, Grassley, and of course Bachman who has fostered how many 25 children. Fostering is usually temporary although many fostered children are moved from one family to another especially if they don't "fit" with a family. Fostering also brings money and extra money for kids that are considered at risk by the mere fact of being black or any other race but white. <br />If legislators are adopting and they do and are they will never be for opening records. <br />That is the adopter class those who make the laws and seal records.<br /><br />Ps another adopter was the older woman from Texas grandma age who acquired two newborns for herself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-9212702483410498862011-08-28T10:30:56.665-04:002011-08-28T10:30:56.665-04:00My children were born in Europe. The doctor's...My children were born in Europe. The doctor's report that was used to register the birth's had my name on it...and that is the only mother that could have been written onto my children's birth certificates. The father? Well, they just took our word for it. Also, after the mother/father information, there is a completely different section of the birth certificate that allows the marriage information to be recorded. What I find amazing about my children's birth certificates is the left one-third of the form has blank lines where notes can be ADDED without altering the factual information on the right two-thirds of the form. That "marginalia" is where adoptions would be recorded. And the child would therefore always have access to ALL accurate information: record of birth and certificate of title.Torrejonhttp://yahoo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-76375450926177111542011-08-28T10:06:51.812-04:002011-08-28T10:06:51.812-04:00RE: the adopter class - one notable member is Jo...RE: the adopter class - one notable member is John Roberts, Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court. He and his wife adopted two Irish children via an unknown/unnamed South American country. The 1991 Irish Adoption Act only allows adoption of children born in Ireland by people who are residents there. People have been known to send their pregnant daughters out of the country in order to have their babies adopted by US citizens. Given the legacy of Irish Catholic abuse of women, especially in convents and Magdalene laundries, I'm not suprised that this is going on.<br /><br />The Robert's adoption was the subject of scrutiny by the New York Times during his confirmation hearings. The NCFA had a hissy fit over the Time's reporting and the details over why two Irish babies happened to be available for adoption in a South American country was never revealed.<br /><br />Wonder what the odds are that Justice Roberts would ever rule in favor of open records?maybehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07067284504038707207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-82112593568461783612011-08-28T08:48:28.917-04:002011-08-28T08:48:28.917-04:00Not too sure who the "adopter class" are...<i><br />Not too sure who the "adopter class" are.</i><br /><br />The adopter class=people who have adopted children. "Class" doesn't always refer to the economic strata of society.Lucillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03225011724349777456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-11409827427199890912011-08-28T08:35:18.024-04:002011-08-28T08:35:18.024-04:00Amanda said "People often say "giving bi...Amanda said "People often say "giving birth doesn't make you a mother!" my response is: then why do people fight so hard and defend being put on their adopted child's birth certificate when they didn't give birth in order to be acknowledged as a "real parent?" "<br /><br /><br />Just wanted to say, Bravo!!!!Jane Karrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-16855614557614617152011-08-27T22:35:15.181-04:002011-08-27T22:35:15.181-04:00"Seriously are there adoptive parents still t..."Seriously are there adoptive parents still trying to pretend they are the natural parents?"<br /><br />Yes. Absolutely. Things really haven't changed that much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-44268378550107941332011-08-27T20:48:27.845-04:002011-08-27T20:48:27.845-04:00I live in OK and wrote a blog post about a meeting...I live in OK and wrote a blog post about a meeting I was in at the state capitol. After the meeting one of the women from an adoption agency told me "they said we could put whatever we want on the bc". I've heard of several adoptive parents who were "given the choice" to put their names on the obc because they were targeted as potential adoptive parents in an open adoption. I think it is happening a lot more than we think and we should advocate for laws which will prevent this. <br />http://peachneitherherenorthere.blogspot.com/2010/08/its-not-fine.htmlSamantha Franklinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18249283547377633349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-61571431061643689232011-08-27T18:19:28.203-04:002011-08-27T18:19:28.203-04:00As an adoptive parent I would be 100% satisfied wi...As an adoptive parent I would be 100% satisfied with a Certificate of Legal Parentage. I am not looking to rewrite my child's history. I just want to sign her up for kindergarten and soccer without a problem.<br /><br /><br />The legal system needs to catch up with the real world and stop trying to fit square pegs in round holes. Let the birth certificate do it's job and give me something to do mine.<br /><br />Seriously are there adoptive parents still trying to pretend they are the natural parents?Lori @ Five of My Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06073176721280820516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-49844523893487200822011-08-27T17:30:31.382-04:002011-08-27T17:30:31.382-04:00As a quick note, for gay couples there are reasons...As a quick note, for gay couples there are reasons for listing both people as parents, and I don't think it's fair to call it "ownership." If a couple raises a child but only one is listed as the legal parent, it can create legal and emotional havoc if the couple breaks up, especially if they live in a state where they can't marry legally. There are many creative solutions proposed here that would make much more sense than the current practices, but right now having both members of the couple listed on a birth cert is the only option.Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-54967636203184329992011-08-27T17:17:24.717-04:002011-08-27T17:17:24.717-04:00"One horrible practice that IS happening, and..."One horrible practice that IS happening, and that states are allowing, is adoption agencies strongly urging first mother's in "open adoptions" to write the name of the adoptive parents (who are many times in the birthing room also) on the original birth certificate."<br /><br />You have got to be kidding me? This is so disgusting I don't even have any words. Nothing surprises me anymore. <br /><br />Is it a birth certificate or a certificate of title? I think the latter, for a great many adopters. The ownership and possessiveness of another woman's child is quite disturbing. <br /><br /><br />I'd like to have a copy of the birth certificate that of the child that I GAVE BIRTH TO, as well, instead of the state, government, baby brokers and adopters acting as if the real and actual event never happened. It did, no matter who tries to denounce it.<br /><br />Too bad it is sealed away, like I am some sort of pariah who has no right to it. I do, just as my child does.PhoenixRisinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07655924058370540037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-29452427052836422522011-08-27T16:38:14.190-04:002011-08-27T16:38:14.190-04:00Peach, tell us more, the last I heard it was illeg...Peach, tell us more, the last I heard it was illegal to put the adoptive parents name on the OBC as if they gave birth. I've heard it done in totally illegal black market adoptions in the past, but not in any sort of legal adoption, open or closed, even where the adoption arrangers were questionable. Where is this happening?maryannenoreply@blogger.com