tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post1989197747400830139..comments2024-03-27T20:48:39.389-04:00Comments on [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: Open Adoption is "one free baby-sitting scam"....Lorraine Duskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-48644578612855672622010-05-24T23:03:18.597-04:002010-05-24T23:03:18.597-04:00I am an adoptee and an "adopter". In my...I am an adoptee and an "adopter". In my case, I was not given a name at birth. I was abandoned at the hospital by my first mother. Yes, I would like to find her and tell her thank you for giving me life and my first opportunity to be all that I could be.<br /><br />As for my son, I was able to name him at the hospital and am still in touch with his bio-grandfather and the lady who connected us together (this was a private/non-agency adoption). <br /><br />As was mine. The social worker called my mother the day after I was born.<br /><br />I know nothing of my birth family, but I know much about my son's birth family. I am so glad that we do.Ijah Joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056851928977412198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-73396514462017427492009-08-18T17:41:57.095-04:002009-08-18T17:41:57.095-04:00Kippa, agreed. Need to read it before reviewing it...Kippa, agreed. Need to read it before reviewing it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-16276458806583092452009-08-18T09:46:55.623-04:002009-08-18T09:46:55.623-04:00"Let's not let AdoptAuthor's idea abo..."Let's not let AdoptAuthor's idea about going to Amazon and reviewing it go unnoticed."<br /><br />Which would mean we'd have to read it first.<br />Right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-87153757096168902212009-08-17T03:52:25.328-04:002009-08-17T03:52:25.328-04:00Lorraine, I think you've given bio AKA Hansen ...Lorraine, I think you've given bio AKA Hansen WAAAAAYYYY too much time and space here. AND publicity. Let's not let AdoptAuthor's idea about going to Amazon and reviewing it go unnoticed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-1286184693851489612009-08-16T20:12:29.054-04:002009-08-16T20:12:29.054-04:00maryanne, your observations are astute. I was exac...maryanne, your observations are astute. I was exactly that to my adoptive parents, a goal and a prize. In their world being childless was tantamount to social suicide. They needed the privileges being parents would bring, such as meeting "the right" families through contacts at school and other parent-related events. I don't know if anyone has researched the detrimental effects of being the "too-wanted" child, but they should. When adoptive parents go through the expense and ordeal of assisted reproduction, plus the expense and ordeal of adoption itself, there is a strong pressure upon the adoptee to live up to that "investment." In my case, my adoptive parents seemed to be under the assumption that by adopting (e.g. purchasing) me, they could mold my interests and personality--even going so far as to hire psychologists to try to force me into that mold. This backfired to the extent that we are now estranged. I can't speak to the effects upon international adoptees, but I do know that trying to meet the unrealistic expectations of being the long-awaited and finally-attained "prize" is emotionally overwhelming and impossible to achieve.Triona Guidryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00969598333210972017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-29616703516486073892009-08-16T19:02:21.847-04:002009-08-16T19:02:21.847-04:00Pennagal, I often like your contributions. I'm...Pennagal, I often like your contributions. I'm not sure of the value of objectivity here. The very strength of a forum on adoption is the individual POV of each member. That's how we learn. I doubt there is even such a thing as objective truth, although there may be universal principles we can agree on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-53801093621935573922009-08-16T18:32:07.880-04:002009-08-16T18:32:07.880-04:00Pennagal, great comments!
Mr.Hansen's kids ar...Pennagal, great comments!<br /><br />Mr.Hansen's kids are still very young, no? I think for some adoptive parents who go through a lot to get a child, the child becomes at first just a goal and prize, and is not really seen as separate person until they start to grow up. One hopes that Mr. Hansen will shift the emphasis more to the kids as they grow and less to himself and his insecurity.<br /><br />We all know the many terrible things that are supposed to happen to the unplanned, "unwanted" child in a family, but has anyone ever looked into the detrimental effects of being the "too wanted" child, the result of years of assisted reproduction or adoption that was difficult and expensive?<br /><br />I think this might place an awful burden on a child to live up to some unrealistic expectations of the parents that the kid be superior and "worth it", and cause problems if the child does not fit the mold set for him as the golden prize baby. In international adoption I could see this being a problem if the child did not fit some ethnic stereotype the adoptive parents had about people from "that country" , like that Russians are literary or Asian girls are passive. In any adoption or high tech reproduction, in some ways the kid has to be more than just a kid to justify how hard it was for the parents to become parents. <br /><br />Any thoughts on that?maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-75534194843330419242009-08-16T12:57:50.284-04:002009-08-16T12:57:50.284-04:00There is a lot of talking across one another here....There is a lot of talking across one another here. It don't think it is deliberate misinterpretation but rather an inability to be objective. I'm a reporter, too, so I know that my own bias informs my writing and my selection of facts to some extent, which is why my writing on adoption tends to be analytical rather that news reporting.<br /><br />I appreciate that Mr. Hansen is hurt by the idea that he is not a "real" parent. Clearly he was not maligning first mothers although, when he read it in someone else's voice, even he took it that way. The setting in which he heard an adoptee's biological parents referred to that way seems to have really stuck in his mind. What is troubling is that his response was centered on himself -- which is how many many verbal adoptive parents come across. His first concern was not how that ill-informed remark made the adoptee feel.<br /><br />Maireanne is quite correct; both sets of parents are very real. And I think it would be beneficial to an adoptee to know both sets of parents; that does not mean it would be entirely positive. Knowing my own biological background confirmed that for me. However, I would have been far better served if I could have observed and learned about some of the peculiarities of my family of origin prior to the age of 50.<br /><br />Those of us who are adopted, are very aware of the insecurity that is engendered by adoption under the best of circumstances. I don't think it is beneficial to an adoptee to be surrounded by similarly insecure people. <br /><br />Love, by itself, cannot solve all problems. Love can motivate the search for solutions and it can support the process and the outcome. Until adoption is once again focused on finding a home for a child who needs one instead of finding a child for a couple that wants one, these problems are not going to go away.Pennagalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04794044911550964894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-38047831055715618032009-08-16T09:40:56.790-04:002009-08-16T09:40:56.790-04:00On this subject, and if Bio does wander by here ag...On this subject, and if Bio does wander by here again:<br /><br />Dawn Friedman's latest post in which she says that the more she is a bridge to her daughter's first mother, the more she is a mother.<br /><br />http://tiny.cc/Fh9RE<br /><br />An excerpt: <br /><br />". . .taking on that job of being her bridge foundation, of supporting her as she reaches to her other family (to her other mother) is the central piece of BEING her mother. It’s the beautiful irony of open adoption — I become more Madison’s mother and I earn my mothering — by stretching to meet her other mother so that Madison can be her child as well. And — this part is central — denying her other family would lessen my motherhood. I would be diminished in my role if I couldn’t see the truth of my daughter’s life, which is that adoption does not erase family ties."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-27632927025181734712009-08-16T08:22:47.521-04:002009-08-16T08:22:47.521-04:00How about this:
One time I (birth mother) was re...How about this: <br /><br />One time I (birth mother) was referred to as a "reporductive agent."<br /><br />If you can't even handle hearing the words "real parent" without going apoplectic you should never have adopted. For your child, I am sorry.Janetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-47158427175373718052009-08-16T08:16:03.999-04:002009-08-16T08:16:03.999-04:00Osolo, thanks for saying what I was trying to say ...Osolo, thanks for saying what I was trying to say in way too many words. Saying one set of parents is real does not automatically mean the others are not, hence, no reason to be enraged unless you need to be the ONLY "real" parent which he says he does.<br /><br />Triona, great comments too and you are spot on that it is up to adoptive parents to teach their children the realities of adoption, not "the world". Adoption is a different parenting situation with some extra things that have to be considered, like what happened to the original parents?<br /><br />Reading the part written to me about being called an "incubator" and wouldn't that make me mad shows how little he knows of the horrendous comments like that people make to us and around us every day, because nobody thinks that one of "those women" is in their social circle.<br /><br />I am soooo slow, I just got the final "corn cob in a henhouse" dig. Yeah, we just peck, peck, peck at poor Mr. Corny.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-22588754030166836322009-08-16T08:15:24.946-04:002009-08-16T08:15:24.946-04:00Dear Bio aka Brooks Hansen:
I once met a prospect...Dear Bio aka Brooks Hansen:<br /><br />I once met a prospective adoptive grandfather who was telling me about his son's travails in trying to adopt from Russia. I knew he did not have a clue as to my connection adoption. I thought about keeping still for about a nanosecond, but there was such a sense of entitlement about his attitude, about how horrible this experience was and difficult, and how much credit his son deserved for all this and so I shared the news: that I was a birth mother, had reunited with my daughter and that she had spent summers with my husband and me. <br /><br />The man looked at me and said: <br />You are our worst nightmare. <br /><br />And Mr. Brooks Hansen, you and your wife are mine.Susienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-45507786023717134962009-08-15T19:39:26.993-04:002009-08-15T19:39:26.993-04:00Yeah, but why do you feel so "spat at" o...Yeah, but why do you feel so "spat at" over what some person on the subway says when if you'd think about it for 2 seconds you'd realize your kids have 2 sets of parents? Both real. OK, you're gone now. Bye.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-11411187833001855932009-08-15T19:37:16.210-04:002009-08-15T19:37:16.210-04:00Bio,
Just in case you check in again here; the &q...Bio,<br /><br />Just in case you check in again here; the "lamb to the slaughter" analogy I used probably came out of my Catholic background:-) Yeah, I know, "Lamb of God" and all that! That stuff sticks with you no matter what. And yes I see it was way too close to Jesus on the cross. to convey the difference in experience and intent that I wanted to convey. Maybe cow going down the chute in a modern slaughterhouse works better. Most of us felt helpless once we were on the adoption track, even when in retrospect and reality we can see we were not, if alternatives had been offered. <br /><br />This has little relevance to Russian adoption, but in the USA and Catholic countries like Ireland, that overwhelming sense of Catholic guilt and self-sacrifice was used against many mothers who could have and should have raised their kids to get them to surrender, especially those who were in Catholic Homes for Unwed Mothers. Check out the movie "Magdalen Laundries". <br /><br />Many of us are understandably leery of religious justifications for surrender and adoption. There is much good and beauty in the Catholic Church which is why I am there every Sunday, but also much corruption, cruelty, guilt, secrets. lies and organizational hypocrisy. This is just as true with adoption as with the pedophile coverups.<br /><br />Peace to you and your family as well.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-5717474307724770162009-08-15T19:36:35.450-04:002009-08-15T19:36:35.450-04:00bio says: "When my children are asked who the...bio says: "When my children are asked who their “real” parents are, call me crazy, but I want them to think of me and my wife."<br /><br />Of course you do. And that's fine, as far as it goes, but to deny the fact that these children also have another set of parents is facile and insults their intelligence and the sacrifice made by their families of origin.<br /><br />"Alas, according to current popular usage, the world does not agree with them. When my children find that out, as they surely will, it’s going to confuse them and hurt them too."<br /><br />Well, that's up to you, isn't it? You could prepare them for that eventuality by discussing adoption in open and honest terms--even if you find it personally uncomfortable--or you can continue to project a fantasy which is sure to damage their identity formation and emotional well-being. If you're so gung-ho about being the "real parent", then do what is right for your kids even if it completely rocks your world. Isn't that what "real" parents do?<br /><br />"I have a ton of work to get to, including a new story that I dreamed up just last night. It's called “Corn-cob in a henhouse.”"<br /><br />If you didn't want to discuss adoption, you shouldn't have written publicly about your experiences. I guess you didn't consider the fact that first mothers and adoptees are just as capable of wielding their keyboards as you are. Too bad. I think we could learn a lot from each other if you would bother to treat us like human beings.Triona Guidryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00969598333210972017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-1887129782463120252009-08-15T17:07:39.865-04:002009-08-15T17:07:39.865-04:00As to what the universe does and does not do and w...As to what the universe does and does not do and whether it cares, we may simply be having a philosophical difference, or semantic, I’m not sure. Again, the fact that agencies and human frailty were involved in our lives and fates in no way discounts the idea that “universe” made it happen. Those seem to me to be different descriptions of the same effect, and in invoking a more universal concept I’m certainly not presuming to suggest that I, or adoptive parents who feel themselves blessed, all of a sudden think they understand the universe better or more clearly. Simply that we feel more intimately than before we are subject to unaccountable, unknowable, and unpredictable forces (including clerical error) that for some strange reason are shining on us for a while. Admittedly, we would like to know why, and we would like to say thanks.<br /><br />Likewise, if you read the rest of my book, which I certainly don’t expect you to, you would see that it is premised on the very ideas that you here have expressed two or three times: that all our stories are unique, that the attempt to graft one persons experience onto another is vain and potentially destructive. I state very clearly at the beginning of the book that no moral is to be taken from our story. I shudder to think that anyone would use our experience, or me, as a model for their own, or as a how-to guide. There is no agenda, political or otherwise. I wrote the book for two reasons: one was that the path of infertility treatments and adoption is one that more and more people are walking these days, but that the public forum didn’t include that many accounts from the man’s perspective. I also wrote it because I am a storyteller and it struck me that the story of what finally happened to us was extraordinary one, notwithstanding the fact that I was an integral part of it. In attempting to relate what I was feeling as I lived through the various events and chapters of our struggle, I’m certainly not suggesting that those feelings are, or were, the appropriate ones or that I was always being fair or generous to others. For much of the account, I’m a complete dick, in fact -- coarse, over-reacting, under-reacting, misplacing anger, misunderstanding, giving myself too much credit, giving myself too little credit. That’s all a part of what was going on. What is in the book is there because it stands as evidence of just how difficult and disorienting the struggle to have a family can be, and because it might as such function to offer some consolation and fellowship to other who are going through something similar. Because yes, all our stories are different, but the feeling they stir in us are not, so we may not be quite as alone as we sometimes think we are, especially in our darkest hours.<br /><br />With that, I actually am going to sign off of the site for the time being. I’m sure I’ll be back, as I think the perspective conveyed here are instructive, but I have a ton of work to get to, including a new story that I dreamed up just last night. It's called “Corn-cob in a henhouse.”<br /><br />Peace to you and your families.Brooks Hansenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412269119866584268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-46766972916775940732009-08-15T17:05:25.835-04:002009-08-15T17:05:25.835-04:00Also to Maryanne,
"Please don't compare ...Also to Maryanne,<br /><br />"Please don't compare my giving up a child to Jesus dying on the cross. I am hardly that holy:-)What it felt more like for many of us was being a lamb led inexorably to slaughter, and not a slaughter we assented to."<br /><br />I take your point. I appreciate your description of your experience, and I am sorry you had to endure such a thing. In fact, I think that that kind of effort represents the best use of a forum like this: for people to share what their own experiences have felt like, as opposed to parsing the efforts of others and telling them why they “don’t get it,” “how this is typical of people like you,” or what their “problems” are. My purpose in citing Jesus was simply to point out that in a lot of people’s minds, loving gestures can entail great sacrifice and excruciating pain, and that certain people’s impulse to describe a birth mother’s sacrifice as “Loving” may therefore not be as pollyannish as it sounds (though I would also want to make clear that I myself am actually NOT one who has, or who ever would ever venture to characterize the motive or the experience of my children’s birth mothers, because I agree. We shouldn’t tell stories we don’t know.)<br /><br />(I also, for what it’s worth, cannot let your reply pass without noting that in order to disavow any comparison to Jesus, you strangely enough settled on what is the other most popular way of describing his sacrifice, that he was a lamb being led inexorably to slaughter. The passage, when I first looked at it, read to me a little to me like, “Please don’t compare me to Michael Jordan. I was just a guy with a basketball winning my sixth championship in eight years.” But in any case again, I am sorry for what you went through, and I thank you for sharing it. I will definitely bear it in mind as I go forward.)Brooks Hansenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412269119866584268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-7787205470956967302009-08-15T17:02:25.601-04:002009-08-15T17:02:25.601-04:00Maryanne
Let me begin by saying that I really appr...Maryanne<br />Let me begin by saying that I really appreciate the overall civility and respect of your comments, which is why I’m happy to respond to your points.<br /><br />First, the anecdote on the subway. I know that I am a real parent, yes. That doesn’t change the fact that when the young man used the phrase, and when 99% of the people on earth use it, they are invoking it for the specific purpose of distinguishing a person’s “birth” parents from the ones who adopted and raised them. For the reasons I’ve explained, this is an obvious sleight and THAT is what the anecdote is about. For your analogy to hold, you would not merely have to overhear someone on the subway discussing the intention to adopt a baby – I, after all, have no problem with the idea of children tracking down their birth parents. You would have to hear them phrase it in a way that you felt spat at and diminished your experience. <br /><br />So here’s how the analogy would work: You’re on a subway. You are 8 months pregnant, but for reasons you know better than I but which are beyond your power to control, it appears that you will be having to give the baby up for adoption. You are overwhelmed. You are trying to reconcile yourself, but the whole idea goes against every instinct you ever had. You feel already that this will be the hardest thing you’ve ever done and that it’s going to continue to affect you for the rest of your life.<br /><br />Two well- to-do couples, early 30s walk on the subway. One of the women says, “Hey, so did you hear, we’re going to be adopting a baby next week!” Your ears perk up; perhaps there will be some nutrition in this for you. Perhaps this will be exactly what you need to hear. The other woman seems very excited. She’s jumping up and down, but then out of nowhere her husband turns around and says (without anyone in the subway so much as blinking): “Wow, congratulations. So did you get to meet the incubator?” <br /><br />Now do you want to take someone out at their knees?<br /><br />For someone contemplating adoption, as I was at that time of the incident, it hurt to hear those words “real parents” used the way that young man did – not because I was offended at the idea that the young woman might actually track down her birth parents, or even at the fact that this young man’s first question should have been about the birth parents (though that did strike me as remarkable). It was the phrase “real parents” that hit me, because it diminished me, and diminished the extraordinary effort I was girding myself to make. For the record, I did not take the young man out at the knees. I winced, and I still wince when I hear the phrase because of the clear insult it does to me, to other like me, and to the authenticity of the bond that my children and I share. When my children are asked who their “real” parents are, call me crazy, but I want them to think of me and my wife. Alas, according to current popular usage, the world does not agree with them. When my children find that out, as they surely will, it’s going to confuse them and hurt them too.Brooks Hansenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412269119866584268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-62936101115988925852009-08-15T12:16:13.037-04:002009-08-15T12:16:13.037-04:00"Yeah, she was adopt
parents as "real ..."Yeah, she was adopt<br /><br /> parents as "real parents" is quite common and always has benn. Hell, 50 years ago, I had people aske me about my "real parents." It's the adopta PC police that put the kabosh on that.<br /><br />I'd say the bios and adopters are "real parents" since each have their own role. <br /><br />I own a home in St. Petersburg, and am really offended (a nice word for how I feel) over your contradictory view of Russian women. You toast these selfless women who gave you YOUR kid, yet you didn't want her to have a literal presence in your life. Lovely. I'd take a Russian woman over an entitled man anytime. Of course, mom may be a street junkie or a drunk. Or maybe stuck in some god-forsaken village in the Urals with a drunk abusive husband.<br /><br />The Universe did not deliver your kid. Pubic policy, bad circumstances, advertising, a pricey adoption agency and their paid thugs, lawyers,and an over-arching American neo-colonialist foreign policy did.<br /><br />If I were your kid,I'd get back to Russia as fast as I could.Marley Greinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15184124024369071862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-77308724635818396052009-08-15T11:56:18.439-04:002009-08-15T11:56:18.439-04:00Need to get going on those reviews cause right now...Need to get going on those reviews cause right now this book has a FIVE STAR rating on Amazon...based on3 reviews, no doubt their parents and best friend.<br /><br />Copy and paste ENTIRE link or search for it on Amazon: Brotherhood of Joseph.<br /><br />(What does that title mean, anyhow?)<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Brotherhood-Joseph-<br />Fathers-Infertility-Adoption/dp/<br />1594868271/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&<br />qid=1250351587&sr=1-1AdoptAuthorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16916713887846028762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-18002342091865791872009-08-15T11:50:00.605-04:002009-08-15T11:50:00.605-04:00Well...woman IS the nigger of the world! Just ask ...Well...woman IS the nigger of the world! Just ask John Lennon and Yoko Ono. <br /><br />As a person who bears (proudly) the label of one of THE most radical anti-adoptionists in the nation, I have can only say this. People - all people - adopters, first parents, foster parents, non parents...ALL vary greatly from thr orst of the worst to the best! I have heard from them all!<br /><br />Look at th folks who jump through all th hopps an dpay all that mony to adopt just to abuse - or even KILL - the prize thy opbtain! That's a whole lots worse even than these ignorant folk!<br /><br />One can only hope that somewhere along the line they either wise up and get educated -- or get what they deserve back from the kids they raise: a royal kick in the arse, or worse...because we also know that adoptees like all other human being run the gamut as well, and some commit parenticide.<br /><br />But please, please, please let us not generalize this stupidity and closed-mindedness to all who adopt. God bless my dear friends like Margie and Jennifer and so many others I have known for decades like Alyce and Carol G. and Jane...<br /><br />***I suggest we all look for this book on Amazon and review it!***AdoptAuthorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16916713887846028762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-10238443134746125912009-08-15T10:33:40.740-04:002009-08-15T10:33:40.740-04:00Bio, you can say I lectured you; that's fine. ...Bio, you can say I lectured you; that's fine. I didn't intend to--more like tried to rock your world. You can't theologize adoption any more than you can theologize a pyramid scheme. But it was you who cut yourself off from knowing the details of your children's original families and now you are saying that it is OK to substitute the words love and sacrifice because you don't know anything. But this is all just a bunch of pablum to feed your kids. The truth is so much better even when it is hard. It's so much richer for this family to be visible and real than invisible and angelic. Recently it was revealed on one search list that a 21-year-old adoptee from Russia had kept her original mother's photo by her bedside for every day of her life, despite the fact that she had been neglected and abused in Russia. <br /><br />As usual, though, Maryanne has beat me to the right words. She is right on with the idea of the universe neither surrendering children not granting them for adoption.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-45126606978738933572009-08-15T08:19:54.982-04:002009-08-15T08:19:54.982-04:00Bio,
Funny you agreed with most of what I said wi...Bio,<br /><br />Funny you agreed with most of what I said without apparently getting it. You are a real parent. So am I. Saying one is real does not cancel out the other and does not equate with the foul words you compared it to. Your reaction indicates you have a problem, not that the kid who said "real parents" was to blame.<br /><br />Suppose it were me on the bus, overhearing a stranger say they were adopting a child, and my first reaction was to want to go over and "take him out at his knees". A bit of violent over-reaction, no? Who has the problem here, the innocent stranger using common language or the person with the violent over-reaction coming out of personal anger or insecurity? Both adoptive parents and birth parents can overreact to words spoken by strangers having nothing to do with them.<br /><br />Please don't compare my giving up a child to Jesus dying on the cross. I am hardly that holy:-)What it felt more like for many of us was being a lamb led inexorably to slaughter, and not a slaughter we assented to. Every story is different, of course, but not knowing the real story behind your children's surrenders does not mean you can make one up. Yes, you can say she loved them and was a good person. You can also find out more of the truth, as Osolo suggested.<br /><br />Osolo is an adoptive mother. I think you missed that. She is not a birthmother lecturing you, but one of your own group disagreeing with you.<br /><br />"The Universe" does not care about you or me or any other insignifigant human being, and does not grant wishes or children. The Universe did not take your children away from their birthparents, nor drop them magically in your home. That was all done by agencies, lawyers, the people whose fees you paid. It would be more appropriate to thank them.<br /><br />By the way I see nothing wrong in being grateful and thankful in a general way for your children, and the wonderful change they have made in your life. Most parents, by birth or adoption, feel that way about their kids, that they are a miracle and that we as parents are lucky to have them. I feel that way about the three biological children I was lucky enough to get to raise, and about the one I was not able to raise, but now have a relationship with.<br /><br />But "the Universe" did not cause me to surrender my first child, nor did it destine him for the dysfunctional family he happened to get. My circumstances at the time and an inept agency did that.One can be grateful for good fortune without resorting to dubious mystical beliefs.<br /><br />Yes, you are fortunate to have your children and it fine to be thankful. I understand that you and other adoptive parents who suffered from infertility went through a lot to get a child, and that most adoptive parents are decent parents who love their kids, just like most parents who give birth to their kids. But they are not as a group, "better" or perfect, or more entitled to special treatment from the rest of the world. <br /><br />As I said before, we are all just human and imperfect, on both sides of the adoption divide. Good and bad, beautiful and ugly. We can't make each other up, but better to deal with as much openness as possible with who we as birth parents and adoptive parents really are.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-44615021499057160512009-08-15T03:17:44.096-04:002009-08-15T03:17:44.096-04:00Moreover let it be noted, when “Adopters” (lovely ...Moreover let it be noted, when “Adopters” (lovely word, that, you’re right) speak of the “lovingness” of the sacrifice of the birth mother, what they are really doing is struggling to offer their children an account for the fact that they were not originally kept. They are, that is to say, trying to do the impossible, since often they have no idea of the reason their children were not kept by their birth mothers. In absence of that explanation, they are simply wanting for their children to feel like their destinies are the product of an ultimately loving and unknowable intention. So sue us. Our purpose is not to ignore the birth mother’s pain, or to candy-coat her experience, or make her into a saint. It is to try to preserve and nurture the emotional well-being of their children (AND perhaps to begin to initiate them into a deeper understanding of just how extraordinary, multifarious, and often mysterious a thing “love” truly is). That way may seem saccharine to you, false, overly romantic and deluded, but something else to bear in mind about APs is this (if I may be allowed to generalize): Many of them, if not most, if not all, have themselves endured an awful lot of pain to come to the place they have, and the experience of finding their children and becoming a family leaves them feeling blessed in a way that surpasses anything they could possibly have imagined for themselves. They are experiencing a kind of love that they thought the universe had denied them. Right or wrong – and this is not a matter for you to decide – they (many of them) regard the fact of their parenthood, the fact that these particular children came into their lives, to be nothing short of a miracle, as nothing short of a miracle could possibly explain such a sense of unwarranted and yet particular blessing. All of which is to say, they are (many of them) transformed human beings, who when they talk about love and destiny and what is natural, are coming from a very new and unusual place – for them. These words have a new meaning to them. They are struggling to express the extent of their gratitude. If it irks you, the idea that sometimes it sounds like they are including you in that expression when in fact they know nothing about you, or that their expressions don’t seem sufficiently to countenance the pain of those whose suffering has made their joy possible, count to ten and breathe. They are just trying to say thank you to the universe and to assure the universe that they will never ever ever forget or take for granted their sudden and stunning good fortune. That doesn’t mean they are the thoughtless, narcissistic idiots-who-nontheless-respond-positively-to-being-lectured-to-like-dimwits that you think they are (osolomama). There is room in their hearts for both gratitude and empathy. They just don’t always get expressed at the same time or in the same way. But they are predicates of each other.Brooks Hansenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412269119866584268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-16593047086425226502009-08-15T03:14:52.608-04:002009-08-15T03:14:52.608-04:00I pretty much agree with everything maryanne said,...I pretty much agree with everything maryanne said, except for her interpretation of the passage in the book, which I still don’t see as reflecting any hostility whatsoever at birth parents. The hostility expressed is toward those who blithely use the term "real parents," unaware of the fact that it implicitly consigns adoptive parents to the role of "fake" or “stand-in." The point is that it is a hurtful phrase, and I had never been hurt by a phrase before. The story really has nothing to do with birth parents, which may be what pisses you off so much.<br /><br />As to the question of how APs (your term) glorify birth parents and their sacrifice, I guess I betray myself as someone raised in the Catholic church, but I don't see pain and suffering as being at all incommensurate with the possibility that an act may be "loving." In other words, I would suspect that being crucified (as a for instance) is about as horrible an experience as a person can endure. Billions of people are nonetheless able to reconcile that fact with the idea that Jesus' sacrifice was the supreme gesture of love. How that works is something of an eternal mystery, granted - and I wouldn't want to be mistaken here for espousing doctrine. I'm simply saying that when an AP characterizes a birth mother's sacrifice as being "loving," that does not mean they are necessarily imagining a gesture of selfless magnanimity, or that they are dismissing the obvious pain involved, or that they believe the birth mother had them in mind. Quite the contrary, they are recognizing the pain, and invoking a rather classic and time-tested (albeit mysterious) concept of love to explain a sacrifice which probably does surpass any other imaginable.Brooks Hansenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412269119866584268noreply@blogger.com