tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post4161248599257795934..comments2024-03-27T20:48:39.389-04:00Comments on [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: An adoptive mother speaks: Why adoptive parents resist reunionsLorraine Duskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-84243003949138323442012-08-25T13:58:55.200-04:002012-08-25T13:58:55.200-04:00Anon,
Thanks for sharing your family's story. ...Anon,<br />Thanks for sharing your family's story. Our hearts go out to your family and all families suffering from adoption loss. I just hope we can work together to make adoption what it should be--a loving way to help a child who needs a family.Jane Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05669797756463841249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-36255180362244306842012-08-25T12:33:39.947-04:002012-08-25T12:33:39.947-04:00My stepsister relinquished her baby years before w...My stepsister relinquished her baby years before we ever met her and kept it a secret from us all of her life, although my stepfather knew, and her own mother died heartbroken over it.<br />We didn't even discover this (although it was something I suspected, but never said anything) until after she had unexpectedly passed away. <br />We met her grown daughter at the memorial service, who was devastated at not only being given away, even though my stepsister had been married (she was 17 and "had" to get married) and now that her mother was no longer alive, she would never find out the details. She had contacted her a few years before and my stepsister finally (after first refusing) agreed to finally meet with her, but she never explained the "WHY" part. <br />My stepfather passed 2 wks after his daughter, from complications of alzheimer's. He had begun losing his memory about 15 yrs before, maybe in some ways it was a blessing for him, not to have to live with that pain any longer.<br />He never got to meet his granddaughter. I know he would be so proud of her, as I know he suffered privately along with my stepsister, all those years (50).<br />How it affected me, was that I was a constant reminder of the baby that was given away. I was born about a year before.<br />I look back on that entire episode of my life as what a waste for the people involved. By waste I mean the effort to hide and never talk about something that ate at these two people I loved, but no one understood. Especially my stepfather as I loved him more than my own father, whom I barely ever knew.<br />And you know what? We would have loved and welcomed that girl/woman into our lives and treated her like the family that she grew up missing. I wish that my stepsister would have just come out and told us the truth. We would have gotten over it, so what about what *other* people think--I really believe my stepsister was ashamed and didn't want us to judge her.<br />It was all about pride. False pride, as far as I am concerned. Being ashamed of a traumatic choice that my stepsister made, for whatever reason she had at the time. <br />If I was comfortable with having contact with this very lovely woman who felt rejected (she even told us that her a/mother first lied and said her parents were "dead," then, that they "didn't want her" and ultimately passed away when she was a teenager--again leaving her "motherless"), I would tell her how, although she wasn't "there" with us all of those years, she actually WAS. She may have been given away, but she was never forgotten. Even by me, and *I* wasn't even supposed to "know" about her.<br />My stepsister suffered from unexplained depression, married and divorced 3 times (the last one molested the daughter she ended up having with her 2nd husband), her entire life was affected by the choice she had made as a teenager.<br />It just makes me so incredibly sad. It was just a traumatic situation for everyone, even for the ones not directly involved.<br />As far as these "Mega Churches" are concerned, I truly wish they would focus on foster kids. They're the ones who need help. I know it is very sad about people in other countries, but I'd rather donate money so they can help themselves and raise their own children. As an American, I feel we need to take care of our own first.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-67173580936719829202012-07-11T23:22:35.687-04:002012-07-11T23:22:35.687-04:00Beasty,
Adopters demonize themselves when they ad...Beasty,<br /><br />Adopters demonize themselves when they adopt for all wrong reasons. Adoption is about the adopter first and foremost it's a need to posess another woman's child.<br /><br />My son's adopter was not to happy when I found him too bad. He told her she knew her mom!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-73866981615199994162012-07-03T07:06:12.901-04:002012-07-03T07:06:12.901-04:00I totally agree, in my birthmothers' mind she ...I totally agree, in my birthmothers' mind she was the one who was abandonned (as she drove back home from the hospital with her family) and left me there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-7825118865900163662012-06-28T19:58:09.041-04:002012-06-28T19:58:09.041-04:00Those like maryanne who go ballistic when we make ...Those like maryanne who go ballistic when we make any statements about adoptees or adoptive parents, arguing that generalizing is inappropriate, I quote the much heralded Jeannette Winterson: "All adopted children blame themselves." "The feeling [of adoptees] that something is missing never, ever leaves you -- and it can't, and it shouldn't, because something is missing." "Adopted children are dislodged." <br /><br />No qualifiers. And this is just the beginning.Jane Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05669797756463841249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-24547501039300811202012-06-28T12:19:06.991-04:002012-06-28T12:19:06.991-04:00Another view of adoptive parents:
Recently we ha...Another view of adoptive parents: <br /><br />Recently we had drinks with neighbors, parents of adopted Chinese girl, Susan. She was nearly a year old when they got her and had been in an orphanage for a long time, that much was clear. She was an aggressive child, often hitting other children, who many other mothers did not want to have play dates with after the first one. Now she is a very sweet and quite shy teenager, a sophomore at a good college. Recently her parents took went to China on a business trip, and took Susan. As we were leaving their house (we were the last to go and we were chatting in the street), the adoptive mother was dying to tell me with great glee how little interested in Chinese culture Susan was, her husband was giving the high sign, big smile...Susan told them she had no interest in it at all, and of course the implication was, Wasn't that great! ? <br /><br />I MEAN, why did they think they had to inform me of this? With such joy? Obviously, they are thrilled that their daughter has no interest in roots, and should she be curious, she would never be able to trace them. They know I am a reunited birth mother, but I never talk about my son, and they are dying to let me know their daughter doesn't care about her birth mother, or what happened, or how she ended up in an orphanage? I couldn't help thinking that only about this subject is curiosity seen as pathology. <br /><br /> We tried to walk away as quickly as being gracious would allow. They had a couple of drinks, and were feeling garrulous, but I felt I had a window into their real feelings. My husband said to me as we walked away, Well, at 18 kids have no interest in their ancestry (normal kids, not adoptees, anyway), and in Susan's case she knows that she has absolutely no possibility of finding her roots, her mother. So why even think about it?<br /><br /> I can only wonder what kind of feelings they have instilled in the girl as she was growing up. From all other respects, they are excellent parents, and of course Susan is better here than if she had been left to languish in an orphanage, but I'm just saying it was a mildly unsettling in-your-face ending to an otherwise pleasant evening. There are times when you want to say something, but I didn't. If I had said anything, I would have asked: Why are you telling me this? With such glee? How much does it bother you that my son visits?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-81663889301384018612012-06-28T10:14:23.133-04:002012-06-28T10:14:23.133-04:00Thanks Robin, I thought that was what you meant, b...Thanks Robin, I thought that was what you meant, but there is so much generalizing about adoption that it never hurts to be sure.<br /><br />It is useful to note that there are some mothers and some adoptees who reject and have no interest in reunion. For those still searching, be prepared for anything, assume nothing. Be brave but compassionate and realistic.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-55620327486959636122012-06-28T07:27:19.304-04:002012-06-28T07:27:19.304-04:00@Maryanne,
I thought that was implied in the first...@Maryanne,<br />I thought that was implied in the first part of the sentence but re-reading it I can see that it wasn't clear. Sorry about that. I was referring to rejecting first mothers and the large number of adoptee comments which mention that the adoptee was rejected.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-80614095869491197042012-06-27T20:09:14.794-04:002012-06-27T20:09:14.794-04:00Robin wrote:"he more comments I read and the ...Robin wrote:"he more comments I read and the more stories I hear of first mother rejections, the more I believe that n-mothers just do not want anyone to know that they gave away their child."<br /><br />Hi Robin, could you please qualify that to read "SOME n-mothers" or "rejecting n-mothers"? Lots of us including those who comment here have been very open for many years about having given up a child. Please do not make such general statements about all of us.<br /><br />I do agree though that adoption as it has been practiced is about the adults, not the child, and the adoptee gets stuck in the middle.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-35705273738557627112012-06-27T18:40:31.542-04:002012-06-27T18:40:31.542-04:00@Mamabetz,
Your son has every right to know who hi...@Mamabetz,<br />Your son has every right to know who his n-mother is. I agree with Lorraine, I hope you told him. The more comments I read and the more stories I hear of first mother rejections, the more I believe that n-mothers just do not want anyone to know that they gave away their child. And as always, the voiceless, powerless adopted child (forever a child) is the one who pays the price. You are right, Mamabetz, adoption is not now and never was about the child.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-62667261611073170892012-06-27T16:25:40.423-04:002012-06-27T16:25:40.423-04:00Mamabetz, I am curious to know why you would have ...Mamabetz, I am curious to know why you would have consented to such an agreement when you must have known at the time it would involve lying to your son by omission until he reached adulthood.<br /><br />H2BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-56498825190037993962012-06-27T16:17:07.915-04:002012-06-27T16:17:07.915-04:00Mamabetz:
Thanks for sharing your story here, wit...Mamabetz:<br /><br />Thanks for sharing your story here, with all its complications. As you say, the one individual that the system overlooks is adoptees as adults. But we were left wondering, did you reveal to your son the identity of his birth mother? For his sake, despite her rejection, I hope that you did. He deserves no less than the truth.Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-73319819909277279812012-06-27T08:40:08.363-04:002012-06-27T08:40:08.363-04:00I hear you Gail, and commend your attitude on tryi...I hear you Gail, and commend your attitude on trying to help your son. I am both a birth mother and an adoptive mother, so I feel very familiar with all sides of this issue. <br /><br />What strikes me is the huge difference in the way people feel about reunion. I surrendered my daughter in 1961. Once she became an adult I began to search for her and it took me 30 years (and a change in the sealed-records system in the state where she was surrendered) to find her. We enjoyed a wonderful reunion 2 years ago. I have met her adoptive mother, who is an amazing woman! And best of all, I have discovered that I have four grandchildren, and they want me in their lives. The relationships are not without complications, but it's better than the pain of not knowing.<br /><br />But the situation with my adopted son's birth mother is completely different. We agreed when he was born that when he reached adulthood he could know who she was. When the time came she changed her mind. We had followed our agreement and kept her identity secret, which was damaging to my son (since she is actually a distant member of my family.) Not only that, she has steadfastly refused to name the birth father. My son was raised to believe he could know his birthmother when he was an adult. Then suddenly that promise was retracted, and I found myself accused of unreasonableness in holding her to a promise she made when she was a teenager. <br /><br />As an adoptee my son had major abandonment issues to begin with, and now ...!!! He is 28 and just beginning to get himself together. But my heart breaks for him. His birthmother refuses to have any contact at all. He has three half-siblings whom he is not allowed to know. And he is categorically denied the right to even the name of his birthfather.<br /><br />I have to agree with the original post. People have NO IDEA what they are getting into when they adopt, even under the most ideal circumstances. As Nancy Verrier points out adoption is supposed to be for the benefit of the child, but it turns out to be mostly to help out the adults. Adoptive parents get the child for which they have longed, birth parents are relieved of a pressure they are unprepared to handle -- the only one not consulted is the child. And when that child reaches adulthood he finds little support in "the system" for his needs. He is left to depend on the other two sides of the adoptive triad. People who participate in adoption need to understand this from the beginning.Mamabetznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-39843660396066148192012-06-26T07:19:46.180-04:002012-06-26T07:19:46.180-04:00Thank you, thank you Robin, anon 11:43, and Maryan...Thank you, thank you Robin, anon 11:43, and Maryann. You have caused me to totally shift my thinking.<br /><br />You are right. This is his journey. It's just that I still see him as this skinny ADHD kid who has struggled with school, struggled with friendships, and struggled where to fit in. He is highly impulsive and can be obsessive, so I'm not sure how he will ultimately handle this. But he is also caring, compassionate, funny, and kind. I so don't want to see his heart shattered.<br /><br />But it's time to stop "preparing the road" and start preparing him for what lies ahead. But it's hard.<br /><br />I hear others talk about what it feels like to watch their baby birds leave the nest. I feel like I'm watching a baby bird prepare to leap out of the nest to.....who knows what? I pray his wings are stronger than I think. And I pray there's another mama bird prepared to receive him. God, please.<br /><br />Deep breath.<br /><br />A wiser woman probably would have expected and been prepared for all of this. But I wasn't. And I didn't.<br /><br />Thank you again....all of you...for your insightful comments.Galenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-66806122926721165582012-06-26T07:17:49.247-04:002012-06-26T07:17:49.247-04:00Okay, at the risk of making this seem to be self-f...Okay, at the risk of making this seem to be self-focused, I would like to ask a question. Robin, you said for me to let my son take the lead in the search, and I can understand the reasoning behind that.<br /><br />My son has expressed a strong desire (repeatedly) to find his birth mother. He doesn't know it, but I think I have found her on facebook through some of my own detective work. From looking at her FB page, they have a LOT in common. My strongest desire is that they would meet and connect in a meaningful way; he needs it.<br /><br />BUT, she kept her pregnancy hidden from her family. She also wanted the adoptive parents to live in another state (which we do). She is also newly married and has an infant. So, bottom line, she may want this to stay a secret.<br /><br />So, that's why I was thinking I could do the preliminary contact, so as to protect him if she says "No." Because if he makes the contact, and she shuts the door on him, he would be utterly destroyed.<br /><br />I would welcome input from any of you who would be so inclined to give it, concerning this, and anything I might say (or write...I was thinking of messaging on FB) so as to help her open up to a meeting.<br /><br />Again, I know this isn't an advice column, and I know you all aren't trained psychologists, but I woud welcome any and all input. I will, of course, make a decision on what I think is best for my son, but to do so, the more info the better.Galenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-75278950070345286922012-06-26T07:16:00.547-04:002012-06-26T07:16:00.547-04:00Reading this forum has been enlightening as well a...Reading this forum has been enlightening as well as heart breaking. I’ve learned a lot about the perspective of the birth mother, that, I will admit, I hadn’t thought of before. Should I have? Probably. But I will admit I didn’t and I’m glad to now be more aware.<br />The title of this blog was an adoptive mother’s perspective on why adoptive parents MAY resist reunion. That was just one perspective. Everyone is different of course. So why do adoptive parents resist? Who knows? Fear is probably one reason: fear of the unknown, fear of what it will do to the family they’ve been working to build, even fear on what it will do to the adoptee. I am seeking my son’s birth mother, and I am afraid ultimately of what it will do to him. Will it help him find that emotional connection he’s been seeking? Or will he become more confused than ever?<br />I never shared how I found this forum. I was actually in the midst of writing a course for nurses on posttraumatic stress disorder and I thought, “Hm. A lot of these symptoms sound like my son. I wonder if anyone has ever done research on PTSD and adoptees.” That search led me to the forum (although the link referenced PTSD and birth mothers.)<br />So when I spoke of an adoptive mother’s pain, I was not referring to the pain of infertility. That is ancient history, and any pain associated with that is nonexistent compared to the pain of watching your adoptive child struggle for identity, to feel powerless to stop self-destructive behaviors that you know spring from his feelings of emptiness and disconnection.<br />Adoptees should be the focus. They are the true innocents in all of this. I would love to learn how I can help prevent this from happening to other children: to help capable birth mothers keep their children, and also to help adoptive parents (because there will always be some children who need to be adopted) learn how to raise their children so as to minimize the emotional traumaGalenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-18597061580957028532012-06-26T07:13:11.083-04:002012-06-26T07:13:11.083-04:00I have deleted my previous comments and am re-post...I have deleted my previous comments and am re-posting them here so as to remove my last name.<br /><br />I feel like I need to respond to a previous comment. First of all, I don't write about adoption: never have. And the idea about "profiting" off of adoption is laughable. First of all there are the up-front costs of adoption; add to that the costs of raising children period. On top of that we have spent thousands of dollars and even more in hours trying to find clues as to how to help our children.<br /><br />I am sorry you have such a negative view of adoptive parents. I don't think any of us approached adoption with the view we could "fill up a hole" in our child's heart. We never thought there would be a hole! Twenty years ago, we firmly believed in nurture over nature. After all, it didn't matter to me that my child didn't develop inside my own womb. I loved them with my entire being, and I would battle anyone who would have implied that they loved their biological children more than I loved my adopted kids.<br /><br />Adoptive parents, for the most part, approach adoption with open hearts. We are told, "Here are children who need homes." And they do, right? They have been relinquished and need a home. So we say,"I have a home. I will devote my time, energy, and love to raise this child." And most of us do.<br /><br />While you think this information is "out there" for people to make an informed decision about adopting, you are wrong. It is not mainstream; it is not what you are told when you adopt.<br /><br />I am sure your comments come out of your own pain, and I am sorry for that. But don't you think we ALL have our own pain: birth mothers, adoptees AND adoptive parents?Galenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-44737622359126633752012-06-25T12:21:53.657-04:002012-06-25T12:21:53.657-04:00Anon 11:12, you have every right to be upset that ...Anon 11:12, you have every right to be upset that you were treated badly by your daughter and her adoptive mother. It sounds as if you were not treated with courtesy or compassion, and that is sad and must be painful. But that is not what you said in your earlier post where you were speaking in general terms about what adoptees in reunion should do; be ready to provide an unconditional relationship oe do not search. <br /><br />Nobody's own situation can be generalized to that of all reunions. As Zan pointed out, an "unconditional relationship" might not even be a healthy thing and is not the same as unconditional love which can exist in one's heart whether there is a relationship or not. <br /><br />We all are entitled to whatever feelings we have about our own situation, but extending that to general rules for reunion does not really work and creates misunderstanding. <br /><br />Thanks for your second post which clarified where you are coming from, a place of sorrow and pain.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-16829285278674101282012-06-25T11:12:25.425-04:002012-06-25T11:12:25.425-04:00Sorry Fluffy you are right. I'm not very good...Sorry Fluffy you are right. I'm not very good at expressing my words. I don't mean to upset anyone, I guess I just had the bio mother at heart during my post and putting my own experiences in my posts. Not saying I expected my daughter to love me,I didn't at all. But at least her and her adoptive mother could have been a bit kinder and not taken me to the trash for their own pleasures. This time I'm having a hell of time getting back up again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-68032383601510954262012-06-25T11:07:32.582-04:002012-06-25T11:07:32.582-04:00I don't think that attempting to have an uncon...I don't think that attempting to have an unconditional relationship with <i>anyone</i> is a healthy or safe idea, Anon @ 3:17.<br /><br />Unconditional <i>love</i>, yes, absolutely... but love is a very different thing from a relationship.<br /><br />Relationships have to have boundaries, including lines where - if they are transgressed - the relationship will cease. No degree of genetic relatedness or amount of past trauma gives one person the right to abuse, degrade, manipulate, threaten, or psychologically harm the other person. If any of that is going on, contact needs to lessen or end, either until the behavior stops or permanently.<br /><br />Relationships also have to have at least some degree of reciprocity in the long term. If the other person is not participating or is openly hostile, it's not a relationship in the first place, it's purely a one-sided attachment. That "condition" is inherent to the whole point of having a relationship in the first place. One party can't do all the work all the time and have it still be a relationship at all.<br /><br />So all this to say, I have to disagree. I <i>do</i> think adoptees and first parents should be giving each other the benefit of the doubt when possible... but I think it's crucial to maintain a reasonable and healthy level of self-protection, too.Zannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-38249972630490507002012-06-25T08:52:16.619-04:002012-06-25T08:52:16.619-04:00Word, Fluffy.
H2BWord, Fluffy.<br /><br />H2BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-36137019761704071512012-06-25T08:40:21.872-04:002012-06-25T08:40:21.872-04:00Agreeing with Fluffy, adoptees do not owe their na...Agreeing with Fluffy, adoptees do not owe their natural parents a relationship or anything else except the common courtesy that should be extended to anyone. They have every right to say 'no" to a relationship, and to set boundaries if a relationship is to develop. <br /><br />Natural parents owe their children answers to all questions, the identity of the other parent, and in general the truth about the surrender and family history. They do not owe their child a relationship either. Nobody who searches is guaranteed a relationship or acceptance, and should not demand or expect it.<br /><br />Any relationship takes two people wanting it and willing to work at it. When that is not present, there is no relationship no matter how much one party wants it. The worst possible way to go into any relationship is with the idea that the other party owes you. Life does not work that way.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-58181493805435880312012-06-25T08:07:32.952-04:002012-06-25T08:07:32.952-04:00Anon 3:17pm said, "This is my opinion that an...Anon 3:17pm said, "This is my opinion that an adoptee should never search for his/her biological mother/father/family unless he/she is willing and ready to carry out an unconditional relationship with them."<br /><br />Anon, can't agree with this, or with your other statements that suggest it is the adoptee's job to be responsible for his or her mother's emotional state or choices. Both adoptees and original parents have the right to set their own boundaries in reunion. You can't force people who knock on your door into unconditional love, acceptance, or perpetual relatedness. Doesn't matter who they are. That's just blackmail.Fluffynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-29073849965612957452012-06-24T15:17:22.786-04:002012-06-24T15:17:22.786-04:00Thank you Gail Thompson for your openness and hone...Thank you Gail Thompson for your openness and honesty. It's nice to see an Adoptive parents thoughts as well. <br /> I pray that your son's search will be a positive reunion with his biological mother. I'm sure it's not going to be easy for any of you including the bio mother. It's great you are also learning what adoption does emotionally to the biological mother, maybe before your son goes on his search maybe you should encourage him to learn what it does to a biological mother when she does relinquish her rights. Knowing the impact what it might have done to her, even though she might have thought she was doing the right thing at the time, might help him understand her and what she is has gone through. Going in blind might lead to a disaster of a lack of understanding leaving the biological mother with even more devastating emotions. This is my opinion that an adoptee should never search for his/her biological mother/father/family unless he/she is willing and ready to carry out an unconditional relationship with them. Nothing is worse besides the day she relinquishment her rights then a door opening to be slammed again in her face. Even though it's hard for me to comprehend a mother not wanting any thing to do with her child it happens and if she does maybe she might be willing to give more information about her family for him to search his root's to find out about those past relatives he came from might be rewarding for him as well. Last if you do contact her through facebook make sure you send a friends request first and then write her, so many people don't see the messages because it goes into the other folder under messages and they aren't seen unless a person is looking in that folder. Most people don't even know it's there. <br /> I wish you, your son and the bio family the best.<br />Many blessing from above!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-70518641955694460032012-06-24T07:44:50.951-04:002012-06-24T07:44:50.951-04:00Anonymous: I think your experience is not that unu...Anonymous: I think your experience is not that unusual--only that your adoptive mother voiced what many think but do not say. My daughter's adoptive mother once said to her--and considering how she came to feel about me, my daughter knew this was a great insult: You are just like Lorraine. <br /><br />Well, she was my daughter. Too.Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.com