tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post4285306563984434015..comments2024-03-27T20:48:39.389-04:00Comments on [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: Why passions run hot in the Veronica Brown story Lorraine Duskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-55308901990945321052013-09-19T20:23:46.744-04:002013-09-19T20:23:46.744-04:00Hi Anon 11:27 pm, even if there wasn't anythin...Hi Anon 11:27 pm, even if there wasn't anything "sinister" surrounding the circumstances of this adoption, even if you think ICWA is being misused in this case, my problem with the Capobiancos' approach is more fundamental, about the rights of families that are procreated and linked by generations of history to stay protected unless there is a threat to the childrens' safety. This is a right that is recognized and sanctioned by the United Nations, as well it should be because any other standard can lead to the breakdown of human society and, indeed, our emotional well-being as a species. The law is fallible and in any case only provides a guide in custody decisions, never actual answers about how to secure the best life for a child. <br /><br />I am a foster/adoptive parent who reunified a child with her biological mother. Based on that experience, I know that if I were seeking to adopt a child and that child’s biological father opposed the adoption when the child was four months old, I would at most want to be assured that the father does not have what they call a “protective issue” in foster care, i.e., is a drug abuser, a repeat felon, a pedophile, etc. and, if none of those problems seem to exist in the investigations of the social workers/family court, then I would walk away. I would walk away because I believe in the fundamental right of biological families to be together when there is a fit family member to take care of the child. Dusten Brown is more than fit to be a parent by family law standards. Notwithstanding what his maligners who want to “Save Veronica” have to say about this father, Dusten Brown doesn’t even come close to being borderline on a family law scale of fitness – he is well above the threshold. I would be wracked with guilt for the rest of my life if I used legal maneuvers to deprive a little girl, in this case Veronica, of her fundamental right, a fit biological parent who loves her and can raise her.<br /><br />As for that “mistake of law” made by the South Carolina Supreme Court, as a lawyer I often sigh because the beauty of the American justice system can sometimes be a curse. The American laws in general are designed to be “living, breathing” instruments, adaptable to the particular facts and needs of society at a given period of time, always changing. There is no absolute truth in the law, and its tricky interpretation is clearly evidenced by the very narrow majority in both the South Carolina Supreme Court and the subsequent US Supreme Court rulings on ICWA as applied to the facts of this case. I think it would be rather presumptuous of us to say that in both those rulings, which were so close, nearly half the justices were making a “mistake.” The law is subject to interpretation – and for now, until times change, we have the US Supreme Court’s majority (5 justices out of 9) view of ICWA as it applies to parents like Dusten Brown.<br /><br />The US Supreme Court however did not rule on custody of Veronica. The South Carolina Supreme Court did, and they assigned custody without conducting a best interests hearing for this precious child who is now 4, not 2 – this I have a huge beef with. But, mostly, I am sad that the Capobiancos lack the empathy toward Veronica to give her the gift of being raised with her roots. <br /><br />I also want to add that Dusten Brown fighting to get his biological child back, which he did from the time when she was 4 months old and he found out about the adoption, can in no way compare to an adoptive couple trying to hang on to a child – one party wants to preserve the fiber of society, a family as created and as meant to stay barring extenuating circumstances, the other party wants to break that family apart. In that regard, I believe the laws too readily permit the loss of rights of unwed fathers. It is a standard so divergent from foster care measures of a fit parent that I fail to understand it. <br />Jay Iyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01592280612055255470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-81355683089612375242013-09-18T17:02:01.062-04:002013-09-18T17:02:01.062-04:00@Anon 11:27pm
There will be a clear winner in thi...@Anon 11:27pm<br /><br />There will be a clear winner in this situation, Veronica, if she is able to stay with her natural dad. You see, Miss Veronica is NOT AVAILABLE for adoption. And the Copabiancos knew this. They knew from the very beginning that the natural father would not consent to the adoption and that they were bypassing the laws of Cherokee Nation. So they can boo hoo hoo all they want, but they are responsible for their own predicament.<br /><br />Then you ask why a father would take his daughter back after two years with prospective adoptive parents. Well, first of all, Dusten had been trying to get her back since Ronnie was four months old and he first learned about the adoption. But the real reason is, duh, he IS HER FATHER. The C's are not and never will be Veronica's parents. Maybe you should read the current post at this blog about re-homing adopted children. I agree these are extreme stories, but you see, Mr. Brown wanted to be the one to be there for his daughter, to provide for her and protect her, instead of giving his own flesh and blood to complete strangers. That is something to admire, not something to criticize him for.<br /><br />If you support the Copabiancos then you are basically saying it is okay to bypass the laws and do whatever you can, by hook or by crook, to take someone wanted, well-cared for child away from them. In other words, you support legalizing kidnapping.<br /><br />Also, I am frightened for any child that was placed through this particular adoption agency as there are now other stories coming to light about their unethical activities.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-1045233535362406662013-09-17T23:27:59.733-04:002013-09-17T23:27:59.733-04:00Hi.
There are no winners in this case. I feel sor...Hi.<br />There are no winners in this case. I feel sorry for both sides. I have to wonder about a father who would take a child from her parents at 2-years-old, and then use the argument today that she is attached to him and it would be too hard on her to be removed. That is exactly what he did.<br /><br />You mention the circumstances surrounding the adoption and imply that something sinister was going on. This man signed away his parental rights - probably to get out of paying child support, since he only paid his back support for his first child when this case came to court. If he was any other man in America, he would be out of luck according to the law. It is because he is Cherokee that has had any right to challenge, but the Supreme Court ruled that shouldn't have applied. <br /><br />I think the laws to protect Indian families are just, and the history iof the law was put in place because children were being torn from their families. I think this law is being abused in this case, and do not think this was the intent of the law. <br /><br />That being said, I don't know what outcome I hope for. Neither offers a happy ending in my opinion. I think the courts should have left her with her adopted parents but since they didn't, and she has spent the past two years with her father, I feel she may be better off staying with him. But, I don't think it is fair for the parents who raised her to lose their daughter because of a bad court decision. My second child is 15 months old and if he was taken away from me for two years, I would still love him and want him back. That early bonding doesn't just go away.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-61817206370286442682013-08-28T09:36:29.270-04:002013-08-28T09:36:29.270-04:00@Maryanne and Robin:
I do so agree with you both. ...@Maryanne and Robin:<br />I do so agree with you both. The double standard when it comes to taking a child from the only home she remembers and where she is happy, is appalling. Especially when it is the home of a decent loving natural parent. Majorly hypocritical.<br />I also agree that Veronica was never truly available for adoption. She should have been with her father from the moment he expressed his desire to raise her.<br /><br />I too am disgusted at the way some of the C's supporters criticize Dusten for having less than perfect grammar. So what indeed. <br />People who stoop to tactics like this have no class. No class at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-91638792900141147952013-08-28T00:21:46.921-04:002013-08-28T00:21:46.921-04:00Hi Anon 11:42 p.m., the US Supreme Court held that...Hi Anon 11:42 p.m., the US Supreme Court held that the father could not invoke ICWA, but that does not necessarily mean other provisions of the act cannot be invoked - by Veronica (as a citizen of the Cherokee nation), by her paternal grandparents and by the tribal nation at large.<br /><br />As for the best interests analysis, the way in which it would apply would be if one argued that the South Carolina courts should NOT have made the Capobiancos Veronica's legal parents without conducting a best interests analysis. So, the argument applies at a point in time after the US Supreme Court ruling but before the adoption was finalized. Regardless, however, I am not sure to what extent the Oklahoma courts can stand up against a judgment (of adoption) by a South Carolina court, given the "full faith and credit" clause of the Constitution. And I don't know how tribal courts operate. All I am hoping for at this point is a miracle for Dusten and Veronica Brown. Jay Iyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01592280612055255470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-8731454615336174032013-08-27T23:42:53.948-04:002013-08-27T23:42:53.948-04:00One thing that is puzzling me about this case is t...One thing that is puzzling me about this case is the involvement of the tribal court. I thought the supreme court ruling that the adoption was not subject to the ICWA would also deny the tribal court any jurisdiction in this matter. <br /><br />I have no doubt that the PAPS would lose a best interests case but they can argue that best interests don't apply since they are the legal parents according to SC (and therefore oppose the GAL appointment). position is that they are the legal Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-40128691291769731932013-08-27T19:50:09.821-04:002013-08-27T19:50:09.821-04:00In response to Rennee:
"How anyone with a hea...In response to Rennee:<br />"How anyone with a heart can think that it is in Veronica's best interest to pull her out of her family home now and place her at 4yrs old with what will be strangers"?<br />Beats me, Renee. I guess it's different when THEY do it.<br /><br />"He's proven himself a worthy father. Leave the family alone."<br />I agree. Whatever mistakes he might have made, he has paid his dues and then some. <br />His daughter has a right to her natural family and he has more than earned his right to have his daughter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-52681425938230660562013-08-27T17:54:07.296-04:002013-08-27T17:54:07.296-04:00If you are an Facebook PLEASE "Like" the...If you are an Facebook PLEASE "Like" the <b>STANDING OUR GROUND FOR VERONICA BROWN</b>page. The Capobiancos page is called "Save Veronica Rose." Save from what? Being raised by a good father who wants her? I think the title of their page with the "Save" is what makes me nuts on this case. <br /><br />Come on, people, so them our fierceness and numbers!Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-59941232094321293142013-08-27T17:11:32.196-04:002013-08-27T17:11:32.196-04:00Its so encouraging to see adoptive parents post an...Its so encouraging to see adoptive parents post and recognize how unfair this situation has become for Veronica and Dusten. <br />As an adoptee, I followed the Baby Jessica and Baby Richard cases in the 1990s and was shocked that adoption laws were built to separate a parent and child. I learned thru my own search and many that I helped how horrific the BSE was, but did not expect it to be 20yrs later and still we are not seeing any improvement in what best interest of the child really means. How anyone with a heart can think that it is in Veronica's best interest to pull her out of her family home now and place her at 4yrs old with what will be strangers -makes no sense. How will they explain the law to her when obviously millions of adults can't figure it out across the states much less in a Sovereign Nation? <br />Why is no one bringing up the SC Supreme Court indicated that there was fault on the part of the C's and the agency with filing the paperwork?<br />Why is no one asking how someone trained in attachment therapy had an attorney who solicited a referral of an attachment therapist with faulty, disparaging and damaging information? <br />People that do that and that hire those who do- don't figure into the best interest of the child. Dusten admitted to his mistakes in waiting and giving Christi time. He's proven himself a worthy father. Leave the family alone. Matt- go adopt one of the children in true need that you so eloquently referenced in your press conference in OK. I pray that the Cherokee Nation Court upholds that Dusten Brown maintains custody of Veronica. She needs to be home. Reneenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-90294094128967726562013-08-27T15:34:41.824-04:002013-08-27T15:34:41.824-04:00Please see these links. There is more to the story...Please see these links. There is more to the story about what really happened to Dusten and Veronica. I understand why adoption records and OBCs are still closed to adult adoptees. The real purpose is to hide all the Georgia Tanns in our midst.<br /><br /><br />http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/08/27/underbelly-us-adoption-industry-trafficking-native-children-151006<br /><br />http://authormarjoriesimmons.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/a-letter-to-the-people-who-have-desirai/Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-2366971272863977872013-08-27T12:26:50.669-04:002013-08-27T12:26:50.669-04:00It seems suspicious to me that those who always ad...It seems suspicious to me that those who always advocate in custody adoption cases leaving the child where she is to avoid trauma, when the child has been the longer time with the prospective adopters, have suddenly reversed on this one. Whatever happened to best interest of the child and attachment to known caregivers??<br /><br />Sure, it's fine to take a 4 year old who knows and loves her dad and his family suddenly away from them, yet it would not have been fine to return a 4 month old when there was a lot less chance of trauma to the child. This case has to be upsetting to anyone with compassion and common sense.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-22889288606697690472013-08-26T19:51:31.134-04:002013-08-26T19:51:31.134-04:00The adoption industry has succeeded in normalizing...The adoption industry has succeeded in normalizing adoption with its message of... "The Adoptive Parents are the REAL parents",... "Adoption is a wonderful way to build a family",... "Being an adopted child is just as valuable as being a bio-child". While I appreciate the destigmatizing effect some of these beliefs have on adoptive families, it is absolutely not the same being raised in an adoptive family as it is to be raised in one's bio-family. I think the adoption industry has been so effective that many people no longer even think about WHAT adoption is supposed to be for and WHEN adoption is appropriate. I think the C's and others like them have so totally bought into the adoption propaganda that they erroneously believe they are Veronica's real parents (forgetting the fact that without her natural parents, Veronica wouldn't exist).<br /><br />The only good I can see coming out of this is that maybe this will take the blinders off for many people about how the adoption industry really operates and what its motives really are. No one has to fight a natural parent to the death to steal their child. The truth is that Veronica is not and never was available for adoption. <br /><br />I am sorry that Dusten and especially Veronica have to be a part of this. But people need to realize that so many other children (myself included) never should have ended up being adoptees in the first place. Maybe the story of Dusten and Veronica will finally start to put some chinks in the adoption industry's armor.<br /><br />It bothers me enormously when Dusten is badmouthed. Sure, I've noticed that he doesn't have perfect grammar. So what!? That is no reflection on how much he loves his daughter or on what kind of father he is. Not everyone gets a masters degree, not everyone goes to law school, but that doesn't make anyone a lesser person or a less fit parent.<br /><br />KEEP VERONICA HOME!Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-55230807805296004412013-08-26T15:34:55.623-04:002013-08-26T15:34:55.623-04:00Dear Lorraine,
The only redeeming feature I can s...Dear Lorraine,<br /><br />The only redeeming feature I can see in the ongoing "Baby Veronica" battle is that the more you read about the steps the Capobiancos are taking - legal, publicity-driven, staking a possessive claim to a child regardless of her fundamental right to her fit natural family - the more it is likely to sway adoptive parents who surely must at least squirm at this unscrupulous hounding of a happy, bonded, secure father and daughter relationship. <br /><br />I like this angle of your post. The protection of families must be the foundation of a civilized society, one that does not readily take away the rights of those who create its future members. I believe this protection is recognized within the penumbra of the Constitutional "right to privacy," first described by the US Supreme Court in Griswold v. Connecticut. And then Kimberly Kirkland, whose review you cite, mentions the protection of this fundamental right by the United Nations. The fiber of our society would be destroyed if children were gathered up from families and redistributed as some authority saw fit. Unfortunately, most people (not just adoptive parents but the general public as well) don't see the seriousness of the much broader issue of family disruption when they see two specific families: one a single biological mother struggling with all kinds of issues, the other a stable couple with a nice home, and spontaneously think, "Of course the child should be with the couple!" <br /><br />Based on the reaction to cases that make the news, I think the overwhelming public opinion that an adoptive family is a "better deal" for a child than his/her biological family comes from society's (unrealistic) view of what an ideal family should be. Money definitely figures in it, but so do one or more of some other factors: more "refined" looks and speech, better education, engaging more with the children (as in reading to them, participating in various activities with them), having a stable marriage and extended family relationships, exposing the children to more information and opportunities (not necessarily due to more money but more awareness of available resources), etc. It is a dangerous slippery slope if we think about "reallocating" children based on a supposed ideal of what a family should look like. Not only that, as your quote about the investigation of displaced aboriginal children suggests, that type of thinking could result in serious disadvantages for the "reallocated" children.<br /><br />This is why I am angry when I see commenters maligning Dusten Brown as "deadbeat," "disrespectful," "crude," "unintelligent," etc. If we deem people unworthy of their parental rights based on anything other than a serious compromise to their children's safety, we would destroy the emotional well-being of society. People need to really think about the gravity of rights that hold a biological family together before judging who should be allowed to parent.Jay Iyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01592280612055255470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-38947232938672221762013-08-26T15:24:08.130-04:002013-08-26T15:24:08.130-04:00Lorraine,
I am starting to notice a few voices he...Lorraine,<br /><br />I am starting to notice a few voices here and there beginning to share their now changed minds on the Veronica case. We that are writing to expose the lesser known adoption truths, are at least getting more exposure because of this unfortunate situation. I hope Veronica will not only stay with her dad, but that her story will help bring forth all our voices on the side of adoption reform and hopefully make a great big change in both law and social perception of adoption in general. <br /><br />The disparity between number of likes on either sides FB pages is , on the other hand, most unsettling. <br /><br />Best,<br />Jennifer :)Jenniferhttp://www.abortedadoption.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-74386979292120692312013-08-26T12:48:36.075-04:002013-08-26T12:48:36.075-04:00Adoptive Mom: We so appreciate hearing from you ....Adoptive Mom: We so appreciate hearing from you . Because so often we feel like it is first mothers against adoptive mothers, and it shouldn't be that way. <br /><br />Jay Iyer's recent post at the blog (see link at bottom of post) is eye-opening. Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-42304732715296693632013-08-26T12:40:49.584-04:002013-08-26T12:40:49.584-04:00As an adoptive parent, I am frankly horrified at t...As an adoptive parent, I am frankly horrified at the behavior of the Capobianco's. They never should have fought for custody and this should never have ended up in court. Not only has this harmed Veronica (this can't be healthy for her), but it pits adoptive parents and first families against each other (not how it's supposed to be). I find the adoptive parents who support the Capobianco's to be creepy, if I'm being honest. <br /><br />So, yes, this case is personal for me...because it is a stark reminder of how horribly adoption can go wrong and how important it is to foster open dialogue with my son's first family. Adoptive Momnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-58702693658321703582013-08-26T11:04:51.338-04:002013-08-26T11:04:51.338-04:00I'm encouraged that a lot more adoptive parent...I'm encouraged that a lot more adoptive parents are realizing how the lopsided supply/demand ratio for infants is driving the exorbitant prices for infant adoption, the need for aggressive outreach and the unethical facilitators who see a way to make money from the desperate and vulnerable. <br /><br />This is supposed to be about the morally righteous act of providing a family for a child who needs one. Instead, it is about procuring infants for those who can afford the price tag.<br /><br />Gaye Tannenbaumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17792214233203816331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-62940692399104064032013-08-26T10:22:11.509-04:002013-08-26T10:22:11.509-04:00Dear Bridget--
Oddly enough, here I am Lorraine.....Dear Bridget--<br /><br />Oddly enough, here I am Lorraine...but when a clerk on the phone calls me that, I correct them to Ms. Dusky!<br /><br />Thanks for your vote of confidence.<br />lorraineLorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-40161616079877269582013-08-26T10:14:52.659-04:002013-08-26T10:14:52.659-04:00I agree that Dusten and Veronica's situation r...I agree that Dusten and Veronica's situation reminds first parents of how it felt to lose their own children. <br />However I think many first parents also feel strongly about their surrendered children's losses, and that increasingly there are adoptive parents who feel this way about their adopted children's losses too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-1710043404500014232013-08-26T00:18:57.214-04:002013-08-26T00:18:57.214-04:00Dear Lorraine,
Please forgive my familiarity in ad...Dear Lorraine,<br />Please forgive my familiarity in addressing you by your first name. And, please allow me that since I could have been you coming up in the sixties but I was not. Ever since Apr 2013, just before the US Supreme Court oral arguments about Veronica's custody and adoption case, I have read just about every word, yours included, printed and published. Bless you for continuing to advocate for all of us -- as in all the citizens of the USA -- to just Do It, as in, us all, having the Right Stuff needed to corral the crowd, quiet the noise, settle the fears, and let Dusten Brown raise up his daughter Veronica privately and in his own shade.<br />Sincerely,<br />Bridget Morgan<br />Los Altos Hills, CaliforniaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com