tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post602991280349467474..comments2024-03-27T20:48:39.389-04:00Comments on [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: O Lord, how long must birth mothers be punished?Lorraine Duskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-24502299083968714342024-03-26T16:18:58.402-04:002024-03-26T16:18:58.402-04:00I know this is a stretch, but is there any way you...I know this is a stretch, but is there any way you might still be active and still have the article? I am having a really hard time figuring out how to access it. Thank you!Veroniquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08629112741603406482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-35405178007324578042010-12-15T22:38:55.981-05:002010-12-15T22:38:55.981-05:00Dr. Hilliard's book on love and marriage was a...Dr. Hilliard's book on love and marriage was a good read. I wouldn't thought such a quote would be attributed to her. She may have already have been ill or still very bitter about her love lost. I still respect and admire her. Richard SotoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-87195470861504500952010-07-09T07:57:29.153-04:002010-07-09T07:57:29.153-04:00Anon 24 year old adoptee, my son said pretty much ...Anon 24 year old adoptee, my son said pretty much the same thing to me, that I had a habit of blaming everyone else for my own actions and it was time I took some responsibility. So I did. And it did help the relationship. <br /><br />I had to take responsibility for my part in the surrender, and leave my parents and others to deal with their own stuff instead of putting it all on them, my boyfriend, the agency etc. I had already explained all that and also used it as an excuse. It was time for me to grow up and take a hard look at my part of the surrender.<br /><br />And I am very, very sorry, and said so, but another thing my son said was that it was not up to him to forgive me, but something I had to do myself. <br /><br />I would not doubt your mother has already been punished plenty, even if not outwardly. Maybe you can tell her how you feel, and how you are tired of hearing excuses and just want her to take a little responsibility for her own actions.<br /><br />The next step, though, once she has taken responsibility, it to accept that and let it go and move on from there with the relationship. Just as it is tiresome for adoptees to hear endless excuses from their birthmothers, it is tiresome to mothers to hear endless accusations and demands for endless apologies from our children when we have already taken responsibility and apologized. It is not your job to forgive her, and it is not your job to call for or instigate her punishment. That would serve neither of you well.<br /><br />If you both want a relationship, you both have to be honest and listen to each other, accept the past that cannot be changed, and move on to build a relationship. This can take many years, you are very young and new at reunion. It takes some patience too, from both sides. I wish you and your mother luck and many good years, and greater understanding and honesty.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-83376513162206972622010-07-08T21:03:47.113-04:002010-07-08T21:03:47.113-04:00And before I am lambasted I have only been respect...And before I am lambasted I have only been respectful to my birth mom, have only worshipped her hand and foot... but I wonder when she is going to be punished for abandoning me, and then pushing the responsibility on her parents, they didn't do this to me, i am not their kid, i was hers and she left me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-43060022670433903852010-07-08T20:45:23.546-04:002010-07-08T20:45:23.546-04:00I am a twenty four year old adoptee almost a year ...I am a twenty four year old adoptee almost a year in reunion, and I would like to comment on this topic. My birth mother willingly had sex, had an opportunity to raise me, walked away from me after seeing me and it's hard to not want her to at least suffer. She had two kids after me and never mentioned me again until this january when I found her after thirteen years of searching. I want a relationship, but I aslo think that birth mothers need to take responsibility. I get the whole baby era scoop thing, but that isn't always the case, or bmoms feel pressured by adoption agencies or paps, but the only people i see that are actually signing the papers and walking away from their children are the birth mothers. I'm just saying, an "im sorry i gave you away" take responsibility is all, you gave the kid away not the other way around. period. yeah, there's sometimes i pull away from my bmom, because she acts like her parents divorcing was more traumatic that my being placed in foster/adoption, that by keeping her biracial child a secret is ok, and it is not. the birth children owe birth mothers nothing. they didn't leave. And i am not trying to be rude, i am just pissed that some birth mothers, mine specifically., can give their kid away live scott free and then have their kid in their life...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-44949062740109886022010-07-08T17:08:23.520-04:002010-07-08T17:08:23.520-04:00Cedar, any chance of copying the whole article so ...Cedar, any chance of copying the whole article so that we can read it?<br />The title intrigues me. Especially given the Hilliard quotation, I can't help wondering what the rest of it says.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-16815325900328302992010-07-07T20:46:53.045-04:002010-07-07T20:46:53.045-04:00Thanks, Cedar.
It's good to see Hilliard'...Thanks, Cedar. <br />It's good to see Hilliard's opinion reported in full context. The fact that it illustrates how those fathers who would have taken responsibility were deliberately excluded is a valuable extra.<br />"Family values" haven't changed much in some circles since those days. I'm sure "Focus of the Family" and the LDS hierarchy would be right there in terms of sentiment. <br /><br />Link to Cedar's blog which includes a scanned copy from the original Telegram article: <br />http://cedartrees.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/<br />when-she-renounces-her-child-this-alone-is-punishment-enough/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-41491450239543711252010-07-07T17:56:29.311-04:002010-07-07T17:56:29.311-04:00What matters is sentiment - that it was an awful ...What matters is sentiment - that it was an awful view to have of unwed mothers and that the end result was that their children were taken away.<br /><br />Dr. Marion Hilliard obviously knew they were going to suffer - that was their "punishment".<br /><br />She must have viewed unwed mothers as criminals to use those particular words about them<br />(misdemeanor, punishment, etc.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-54570940128018141722010-07-07T17:29:03.787-04:002010-07-07T17:29:03.787-04:00Here is that quote in context of what's around...Here is that quote in context of what's around it: eliminating fathers from the picture and talking about "discipline" in the home being the "remedy.": <br /><br />" 'The father plays absolutely no part in this. That is part of her rehabilitation. When she renounces her child for its own good, the unwed mother has learned a lot. She has learned an important human value. She has learned to pay the price of her misdemeanor, and this alone, if punishment is needed, is punishment enough.' Dr Hiiiard echoes the beliefs of the social workers and the agencies dealing with unwed mothers, though hers have come to her privately. And she, like the other authorities, though refusing to blame the girl's home, lays the remedy right on its doorstep... 'We must go back to a primary set of values and the discipline that starts with the very small child,' says Dr. Hilliard."Cedarhttp://cedartrees.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-2653873744770668362010-07-07T15:51:06.065-04:002010-07-07T15:51:06.065-04:00I have a photocopy of the original November 22, 19...I have a photocopy of the original November 22, 1956 article in front of me. <br /><br />"Mothers not all unhappy" by Dorothy Howarth, Toronto Telegram Reporter. Toronto Telegram, November 22, 1956.<br /><br />"Anonymous" is almost right regarding the quote from Dr. Marion Hilliard. This is the complete quote: <br /><br />"When she renounces her child for its own good, the unwed mother has learned a lot. She has learned an important human value. She has learned to pay the price for her misdemeanor, and this alone, if punishment is needed, is punishment enough." <br /><br />A copy of this article can be ordered directly from the Toronto Sun (Sun Media Corporation).Cedarhttp://cedartrees.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-21718168328576272232010-07-07T13:37:59.008-04:002010-07-07T13:37:59.008-04:00Thanks for the permission, anon.
"It's p...Thanks for the permission, anon. <br />"It's possible she really did say that" is such a quotable quote.<br /><br />People are going to be really impressed to hear that Marion Hilliard might have said that "Unwed mothers should be punished and they should be punished by taking their children away." <br /><br />Especially when they check the archives of the T.T and discover that Hilliard's words as (correctly) transcribed from the original by Margaret Jane Hillyard Little read "When she renounces her child for its own good, the unwed mother has learned a lot. She has learned to pay the price of her misdemeanor and this alone, if punishment is needed, is punishment enough."<br />Almost, but not *quite*, the same thing.<br /><br />Not, of course, that accuracy is important.<br />I mean, who cares? <br />It's only words.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-62594917804939443822010-07-07T09:12:01.265-04:002010-07-07T09:12:01.265-04:00Anon wrote
anon wrote "that is straight from...Anon wrote<br /><br />anon wrote "that is straight from the book." <br /><br />So is " ' When she renounces her child for its own good, the unwed mother has learned a lot. She has learned to pay the price of her misdemeanor and this alone, if punishment is needed, is punishment enough.' " which was put in inverted commas, normally intended to indicate a direct quotation. <br /><br />anon said "it is possible that she really did say that line"<br />Can I quote you on that? <br />It's too good to waste.<br /><br />Yes, that woman really did say that. It is referenced in the book mentioned earlier or one could go around digging through Toronto newspaper archives of Nov. 1956<br /><br />Go ahead and use that.<br /><br />I can tell you from first-hand experience that they felt like that at Women's College Hospital for almost 3 decades afterwards. <br />The staff were so heartless there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-60805992613611876772010-07-06T21:50:53.132-04:002010-07-06T21:50:53.132-04:00and another book like "Girls Who Went Away&qu...<i>and another book like "Girls Who Went Away" covering 1973 to the present would be a wonderful way to show adoption abuse is still happening.</i><br /><br />Completely agree and willing/able to contribute/organize, etc.<br /><br />Claud and I have discussed this at length many times. As Bernadette noted, the same bias, stigma existed in 1986 when I was sent 1000 miles from home to a maternity "home" to surrender my first born to a baby broker named Kurtz. <br /><br />Claud, Bern, me, others, we really need to get this post BSE reality OUT THERE.suzhttp://writingmywrongs.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-40178381246344180052010-07-06T21:11:43.974-04:002010-07-06T21:11:43.974-04:00anon wrote "that is straight from the book.&q...anon wrote "that is straight from the book." <br /><br />So is " ' When she renounces her child for its own good, the unwed mother has learned a lot. She has learned to pay the price of her misdemeanor and this alone, if punishment is needed, is punishment enough.' " which was put in inverted commas, normally intended to indicate a direct quotation. <br /><br />anon said "it is possible that she really did say that line"<br />Can I quote you on that? <br />It's too good to waste.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-42668071277147934352010-07-06T14:12:49.548-04:002010-07-06T14:12:49.548-04:00Cedar,
Maybe "self-selected" was not th...Cedar,<br /><br />Maybe "self-selected" was not the right word, as I am not a statistician or researcher. What I meant was that most of the studies I have seen used by adoption reform and anti-adoption groups were done using those who replied or were already in touch or members of the group, not a random sampling of mothers who had surrendered in general. A true study needs to include a cross-section of the population, not just one segment. <br /><br />Also many of these surveys were a very small group, and almost all were already involved in searching or support groups which is a self-selection right there. The questionnaires I have seen and participated in were often written in such a way to bias the outcome and response. They were not neutral.<br /><br />A survey does not have to be mandatory like the census to cover a true cross section of the group being studied. As Gail pointed out, it also has to account for other variables among the population being studied. She used the example of "90% depressed their whole lives over surrender". <br />How does one define "depressed" in this context? Clinically depressed? On medication? Sad or unhappy about having surrendered? <br /><br />Another suspect piece is the number of hysterectomies. What age were the women in the survey? If they were around 60, how does that figure compare to women who have not surrendered a child but are the same age? With many of these questions, it is also vital to remember the saying "correlation does not equal causation". Perhaps a majority of women who surrendered are nearsighted or prefer tea to coffee, but was this caused by surrender? <br /><br />If we want to be credible, I do not think we should quote and repeat statistics that are at best questionable. It is tempting to use numbers that back up what we already believe to be true, but it is not really scientific research but propaganda backing a pre-set agenda. <br /><br />Real research posits a hypothesis or theory, then does a controlled scientific study, but the honest researcher has to be unbiased and ready to accept data that proves the hypothesis wrong as well as that which proves it correct. <br /><br />Adoption reform is full of junk science. It does not help our cause.maryannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-34625041829462709532010-07-06T13:38:10.983-04:002010-07-06T13:38:10.983-04:00CarolC, I don't know of any other way to conta...CarolC, I don't know of any other way to contact you. Would you consider telling me more about your story for my article on "punished" bmoms? You can reach me through my blog.<br /><br />write-o-holic.blogspot.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-88362505272160321822010-07-06T13:07:27.974-04:002010-07-06T13:07:27.974-04:00I think Maryanne and Gail are right that honest we...I think Maryanne and Gail are right that honest well-told stories triumph mightily over stats in communicating the harsh realities of the not-so-distant past when it came to the way pregnant unmarried women were treated. <br />Gail makes an excellent point about the importance of other media as a means of getting things across, and apropos of that, Osolomama has linked to a wonderful documentary on CBC's "Passionate Eye" about Ontario first parents "back in the day". <br />It is called "The 40 Year Secret".<br />Check it out here:<br /><br />http://osolomama.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/one-heckuva-canadian-doc-about-first-moms-get-it-here/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-74349491838411451942010-07-06T08:59:28.420-04:002010-07-06T08:59:28.420-04:00Cat here - sorry for any confusion about Telegram ...Cat here - sorry for any confusion about Telegram and Telegraph. <br /><br />I went a bit word blind - you are right that it should read Daily Telegram.<br /><br />I guess I was thinking of Berlin :)<br /><br />My apologies to the forum.<br /><br />I am working on a letter to the Ontario Ombudsman - still angry that I am still being denied the right to name my son's father on the OBC. <br /><br />I sometimes I don't think or see straight when I am upset. Sorry about that (eye problems don't help either - bits of the jelly in the eyeball break off and float across my line of vision distorting small letters).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-65593889372487965682010-07-06T08:50:37.007-04:002010-07-06T08:50:37.007-04:00Re: The Daily Telegram (in Toronto)
I can vouch f...Re: The Daily Telegram (in Toronto)<br /><br />I can vouch for the existence of this newspaper. I used to read it when I lived in Toronto (many years ago). <br /><br />It was very dry reading - not surprised it was doomed and ceased to be in 1971.<br /><br />Telegram and Telegraph are very similar names - so easy to be confused. Both names were used throughout Ontario.<br /><br />There were other papers in Ontario that had the word "Telegraph" in it, such as the Daily Telegraph in Berlin, Ontario.<br /><br />BTW - Berlin, Ontario no longer exists. It has been renamed Kitchener due to the First World War.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-32681995662051901772010-07-06T08:07:08.958-04:002010-07-06T08:07:08.958-04:00Re: the Dr. Marion Hilliard quote.
It may have be...Re: the Dr. Marion Hilliard quote.<br /><br />It may have been para-phrased but the meaning still remains the same as was the end result. Thousands of unwed mothers lost their babies because of this prevailing attitude.<br /><br />The book does say ". Dr. Marion Hilliard, chief of obstetrics and gynecology at the Women's College Hospital, believed that an unwed mother should be punished by having her child adopted" - that is straight from the book. <br /><br />Also, without having access to the whole Telegraph article or other contemporary articles to hand, it is possible that she really did say that line verbatim somewhere and that there may well be some speech where this quote may have come from. <br /> <br />You also have to remember that Dr. Hilliard wrote hundreds if not thousands of articles - she may well have mentioned that line in one of them. One would have to go through all of those magazines, newspapers and journals. I personally would not be surprised if she really did say that. <br /><br />It certainly was the attitude of Women's College Hospital for decades (until approx. the 1980's)<br /><br />As an unwed mother who had her baby at this notorious hospital, they certainly punished us. My son was taken from me without any consent to his adoption. <br /><br />The social workers had their own office on the maternity ward, ready to swoop in at a moment's notice. They would actually examine mother's hands for wedding rings. Woe betide you if you weren't wearing one. <br /><br />They were cunning, brutal and heartless in the manner that they took our babies at this horrible place. <br /><br />Instead of a consent to an <br />adoption, they would tell you to sign a non-ward, temporary foster care agreement and that you could have your baby back when you had proved yourself. They also told mothers that if they didn't sign, they would take the baby anyway.<br /><br />We were denied any access to a lawyer. I asked for one prior to signing the temporary foster care agreement (which I was not allowed to read) - the social worker refused. There were no cell phones or internet in those days. The nurses carried keys which were used to lock down the ward phones so we could not phone out. If we tried to leave even for the smallest amount of time to get a lawyer, they threatened to charge us with abandoning our children. <br /><br />We were literally trapped with no way out. <br /><br />Of course, once in foster care, they made all sorts of excuses for not returning our babies. They didn't even tell me about the court date when they made my son a crown ward which ended my parental rights. I had no idea about this until it was too late. <br /><br />They were allowed to do that at Women's College Hospital (my son was taken from me in the late 1970's). We had no rights at all. <br /><br />Ironically, the file states that I am a very good mother, so it is clear that my son was not taken on grounds of neglect or abuse. It was just the fact that I was not married at the time of his birth - period. <br /><br />That seems to bear out the punishment policy of taking babies from mothers just for not being married - and they certainly punished us for that. I suffered a great deal of verbal and physical abuse there as did other unwed mothers that I personally know.<br /><br />I lost count the number of times nurses called us sluts, whores, stupid girls, little tarts, etc.<br /><br />I can barely bring myself to recall the brutal phyiscal abuse we were made to endure. <br /><br />We were all told that we deserved to suffer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-57551824769872257562010-07-06T07:39:21.634-04:002010-07-06T07:39:21.634-04:00"it is apparent that a disconnect often exist..."it is apparent that a disconnect often exists between an adoptee’s perception of the firstmom’s pregnancy experience and the reality of that experience."<br /><br />There is another disconnect that is equally important, and that is the first mother's perception of the adoptee's experience of being relinquished and adopted.<br /><br />I agree that stories help, because no one story is exactly like another and it is those personal touches that make these histories ring true.<br />Particularly during the "Girls Who Went Away" years, financially dependent unmarried under-age women were in less of a position to keep than those who were older, and even for older relatively independent women, the disincentive to stand up against a harshly judgmental society was pervasive and intense (and the consequences for doing so, often severe) <br />But ultimately, I'm with the person who said trying to conjure up the world as it was is a well nigh impossible task. Along with information and imaginative empathy there has to be a leap of faith - but one which goes both ways. <br />After all, adoptees experience their own reality too, and they are beginning to tell their stories, which are a necessary counterpoint to those of first parents.<br /><br />There is doubt that attitudes to unmarried mothers have changed dramatically over each successive decade since the 1950s. But the pressures remain, though to an increasingly less extent, in many pockets of our culture. <br />LDS families and others, churches and associated adoption agencies continue to steer their "erring" daughters toward adoption, believing it to be a moral and social panacea, much as they did during Marion Hilliard's time. Though the judgmentalism is less - or at least less overt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-10205511631610604832010-07-06T06:45:18.608-04:002010-07-06T06:45:18.608-04:00I sometimes think that trying to explain to a youn...I sometimes think that trying to explain to a younger generation about how different things were back then is like asking them to imagine the world without their mobile cell phone or the internet.<br /><br />It is difficult for them to even imagine that concept.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-37623961476724140022010-07-06T02:01:13.114-04:002010-07-06T02:01:13.114-04:00maryanne, i would go as far as to state that most ...maryanne, i would go as far as to state that most if not all surveys are self-selected. the only ones i can think of which are "mandatory" surveys such as that by Census Canada. (and then, there are folks who snub their noses at it).Cedarhttp://cedartrees.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-31589473985034332402010-07-05T18:00:13.982-04:002010-07-05T18:00:13.982-04:00Maryanne,
Your comments regarding statistics wer...Maryanne, <br /><br />Your comments regarding statistics were well stated. It is because statistics are often loosely used to bolster one's positon that the following saying became popular: “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.” <br /><br />I agree with you. The statistics you quoted do indeed sound extreme and unless I had much more detailed information about the study subjects, the research strategy and design and the evaluation of the data, I would be very hesitant to say things like, “90 % of natural mothers are depressed for life due to the fact that they have been cut off from their children…..” (e.g., how does the researcher know for a fact that the life-long depression was indeed caused by being cut off from their children? Were other variables considered?) <br /><br />I too believe that adoption reform research studies would be better served using a qualitative approach to the research design model. As you pointed out, telling our stories is an excellent vehicle for accomplishing such a task.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-574300303008890516.post-75452839692309302042010-07-05T16:15:04.422-04:002010-07-05T16:15:04.422-04:00Just wondering, since most of the surveys floating...Just wondering, since most of the surveys floating around in adoptionland were self-selected among those already searching or reunited, could it be that more women who never had another child search than those who had more, or that they get more involved in support groups? <br /><br />I honestly have no clue, just throwing this out there as another possibility.maryannenoreply@blogger.com