' [Birth Mother] First Mother Forum: While gay marriage is the talk, how about adoptee rights?

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Wednesday, March 27, 2013

While gay marriage is the talk, how about adoptee rights?

Lorraine
I can't be the only person who is following the news about gay marriage and gay rights that is the focus of the Supreme Court these last few days--it's on CNN and MSNBC and all the rest and the front page of the newspapers--but Lord, all it reminds me of is how far we have to go to give adoptees the right to own a simple piece of paper: their birth certificates!

Gay marriage is going to happen, whether or not the Supremes come down on the right side of history or not--but us? Adoptees can't get no respect! And forget about us first mothers! We signed the paper under the OLD RULES that allowed for no contact, no knowledge, no anything in relation to our babies, and those rules now are in place, no matter that we had no choice! I remember so well the social worker saying: If you don't agree to never knowing what happened to your daughter, we can't help you. I signed, under duress, a forced confession.



PhotoI see the gay-marriage advocates on television talking about how this momentum occurred as  more and more individuals came out of the closet and thus their parents and brothers and sisters and cousins had to re-think their position about the rights of a gay person to be treated like the rest of us. Now we need adoptees to step out of the sidelines, to stop waiting until their adoptive parents die, to come out and say now: I WANT TO KNOW MY TRUE HERITAGE.

And yes, now we need every first mother who ever thinks about her baby to come out of the shadows and say: We do not want anonymity. And even though there are those who do cling to it, consider this: It is inherently wrong to deny someone the knowledge of who they were at birth simply to spare these women, and men, embarrassment, no matter how long they have been lying by omission to their families and friends. Birth happens, and everyone deserves to know their true identity.

We need the momentum for change to be so pervasive that we will not encounter new laws that go halfway, and give some adoptees the right to their identities, and deny others because of the specter of a few mothers-in-hiding who want to stay there. We must not let them prevent all men and women adopted as children be free from the shackles of archaic rules that have no place in today's society.

We need the sisters and brothers and spouses to speak up about this when talk of "equal rights" passes on the lips of someone nearby. On Facebook today someone who was demonstrating at the court in DC said that she said that adoptees need their rights too, so they don't end up marrying their brothers and sisters, and the guy standing next to her said, Right, I never thought of that, my wife is adopted! We need everyone to speak up, today, tomorrow, and the day after that.

And if that happens, change will come in our lifetimes.--lorraine
________________________
Jane will be back tomorrow or very soon with a report on the second hearing on the bill in the state of Washington. 

52 comments :

  1. AMEN, Sister!

    If 99% of original parents of adoptees stay silent;
    If 98% of adoptive parents stay silent;
    if 95% of adoptees remain silent...

    The rest of us will continue to experience genetic ignorance/ambivalence/amputation.

    Rolande Sygne Hampden/Pam Hasegawa

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  2. Perhaps we need some of those forced confession under duress imposed on "mothers" that refuse to tell their adopted out kids who their fathers are. Some just don't see the point in telling their sons and daughters this bit of info.This adoptee would be happy to step out of the sidelines if it wouldn't be a betrayal to her biological mother who wants still wants my existence and adoption kept a secret. Your blog makes me crazy when I read it, how simple you try and make it all out to be. It's a joke making a comparison to gay marriage.

    Don't bother to pity me because of my in the closet biological mother who is so inferior to all you out of the closet bio mothers. She's a rather nice lady, we get along quite well and she really stepped up to the plate for my 50th birthday. The fact is none of it is as simple as telling us adoptees to stop waiting for our adoptive parents to die before stepping out of the sidelines as you put it. I didn't wait, my sister didn't wait, your daughter Jane didn't wait, and I could name many many other adoptees who didn't wait. You do such a disservice to all adopted people and their parents, all of them, when you ignore how complicated unwanted pregnancy, adoption and reunion really are, to tell us adoptees to stop waiting until our adoptive parents die. It's true though, adoptees can't get no respect on this blog unless we're sucking up to you and Jane and spouting primal wound crap. Some things never change.

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  3. So true, Lorraine and Pam! Thank you for speaking our truths and being the forerunners so others can find their voices as well.

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  4. Campbell, bitter much?

    Yes, it is so complicated--that adoption stuff--that we should all shut up and say nothing. Follow your lead, and nothing will happen. Ever.

    How did Lorrine compare gay marriage and adoptee rights? She only said all the gay stuff in the news reminds her how far we haven't come.

    Other than criticizing, what have you ever done to help gives all adoptees their OBCs? Oh, nothing, because it's too complicated? Sorry about your fmother, though. You two sound like a pair.

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  5. Perhaps the momentum will finally come when we start reaching out for help from ALL sides of the adoption world, not just first mothers and adoptees. I agree that we need to stand up for this injustice, but I don't see how that's going to happen when we are ranting all the time about how abused and downtrodden we are.

    I once showed my son's adoptive mom this site. We read through some of the posts and talked about them. She said something absolutely and brutally honest, "if I thought for an instant that any of these women were going to be involved in my adoption, I'd shut the adoption down too. They just seem to threatening. I wouldn't want my family to be exposed to that level of blame. It's normal for (you) to have doubts and pain and regret. But to be so angry at adoptive parents is just dumb. I adopted a child and that child's family became mine. That doesn't give them the right to abuse me or you for our choices." I think she's right. When I relinquished 13 years ago, I went through some dark times. I was honest with my son's adoptive parents about what I was going through, but I never blamed them. Relinquishment was my choice.

    So, let's stop blaming adoptive parents and adoptees. Let's stop blaming each other. Let's stop fighting and bickering about the minutia of what's "right and wrong". And let's reach out to others so they can see who we are as people, not just angry and bitter. Let's communicate!

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  6. Why do adoptees and first mothers have to be compared to gays? Many of them molest children. We don't. I am sick of seeing men in high heels dancing around and acting in the immature fashion that they do. I am also sick of the gays adopting and claiming on an amended BC that two men conceived and gave birth to a child. That is the biggest insult any adopted person could ever get. Gays, so many of them don't support us, some even try to keep the records closed. They have used us for their cause and there are many adoptees and first mothers who do not want gay adoption to exist. I know of one such adoptee that wrote a letter to the President of his country stating this to protest gay adoption. Sorry to say, but gays are crazy while first mothers and adoptees are not. Gay marriage is also crazy while having the right to your own heritage never has been and never will be.

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  7. Many of the anonymous comments left here are from women who have been badly scarred by the adoption experience. I can understand how an adoptive mother, new to understanding the depth of feeling, might react. The same way first mothers react when they read anonymous comments from SOME adoptive parents.

    Yet we get emails from other adoptive mothers who thank us for opening up and teaching them about the adoption experience their children are going through.

    But is asking people to stand up for their own rights "blaming" them? Shall we all sit around instead and sing Kumabaya?

    Until people do ask for their own rights, they are not going to get any. By inaction, they are saying they are satisfied with the status quo. Adoptive parents, by and large, and the man on the street are not going to change the laws: only we can. As someone noted today on Facebook, it is easier to get people to sign a petition to save the whales than one for adoptee rights, as in the petition in the right sidebar.

    I've been involved in this long enough to know how difficult the adoption issue is for mothers in the closet, for adoptees, but unless they speak up, everyone will die before the records are open.

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    Replies
    1. I agree with thia completely. It has taken 41 yrs of living for me to give myself permission to say out loud here, on facebook, twitter or to folk I know that as an adoptee I am not ok with the unnatural removal of a baby from his or her mother. While I am learning to live with this pain by engaging with it through therapy, I would spare future babies this åain by advocating abstinence, contraception or abortion for unwanted pregnancies. A birth mother has a pre trauma of relinquishment self - a newborn is left with feeling like half of a whole - something he or she will then HAVE to battle with for the entirety of their life.

      Thank you Lorraine for your encouragement and support.

      Delete
  8. Cambell as an adoptee I see no "joke" in the comparison of rights of gay people and the rights of adoptees. GAy people just want to be themselves and live an authentic life..as do we. the difference is that gay people(if not adopted) probably already know who they are genetically..we don't. At least gay people are finally getting support...we don't. the only grip I have is when they want to adopt wombfresh babies to complete their families. That turns me..a lot.

    I can't help but think that Lorraine was trying to support us?

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  9. We need our own "Stonewall." The fight for rights among the LGBT community didn't just happen out of the blue without a hell of a lot of hard work, busted heads, demonstrations, and, yes, even riots.

    It is very bothersome to me that Rachel Maddow won't take up the issue of adoptees gaining the right to access their own original birth certificates. I've been writing her on a monthly basis for the past couple years, and she can't even be bothered to reply.

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    Replies
    1. I agree - Lorraine want to spearhead the campaign? I would but I live in England though I was born in Phoenix, AZ

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  10. Victoria said "Yes, it is so complicated--that adoption stuff--that we should all shut up and say nothing."
    Campbell said that?

    "Follow your lead, and nothing will happen. Ever."
    Whoever suggested anyone should "follow her lead"? Nobody. Only you.

    "Other than criticizing, what have you ever done to help gives all adoptees their OBCs?"
    So what have *you* done, Viktoria? And how do *you* know what Campbell - and others like her - have or have not done?
    Not everyone is out there flaunting how significant they are in fight for OBCs for adoptees. Not to forget that some people are more burdened with responsibilities than others. But never mind that.

    "Sorry about your fmother, though. You two sound like a pair."
    I won't even start get started on what you sound like. If I did. this comment wouldn't stand a chance of getting published.
    It may not anyway.

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  11. I actually agree with Campbell to a degree although I am not sure why she wants to read a blog that makes her ill. Isn't she the one who has been telling people for years that if they don't like what she has to say, they shouldn't read? Campbell should take her own advice. None of us want her to be ill. Bless her heart.
    Anyhoo, I support gay marriage personally but most of the gay people I know do not and will never support adoptee rights. Most of them are looking to get one of them there adoptees of their own down the road. They don't want to hear about the product having rights. How absurd.
    Also, I got my OBC because I used my state registry. The
    law everyone hates so much and says is unfair worked for me. Therefore, most of the zealots want me to be quiet. I heart politics.

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  12. Thank you, dpen.

    If I didn't care about giving OBC access to all adoptees, I would have shut up shop and left this brutish business a long long time ago. If Jane didn't care, she wouldn't be lobbying in Olympia, Washington. I spent the morning writing to every legislator on the Codes committee in the Assembly in Albany, where our NY bill is.

    What I hate to see happen is another year go by with so little support for adoptee rights. I see that the number of people who have signed the petition has slowed down to a trickle. I got involved with Florence Fisher in the 70s, as did Maryanne, and we are still here. Neither NJ or NY have allowed adopted people to be free from their own anonymity. At the pace at which this movement is moving, I will die myself before I see victory. Florence retired without seeing it happened. I am not willing to do that yet.

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  13. Raven:

    Fascinating that you write to Maddow about this and don't even get an answer. But it is good that you do it.

    A group of us are trying to get a lot of letters going to President Obama now. Will it make a difference? Who knows, but if we don't try, we can be sure nothing will happen. Send one of your letters to the prez.

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  14. My heart goes out to moms that believe they truly had a 'choice'. May they learn the truth soon. Of course many amoms won't like what is said here. Who would want anyone but the nice, compliant 'b' mommy? If moms were told the whole truth and given support we sure would've shut the whole thing down, too!!!

    I'm tired of those that have been brainwashed into believing that lack of anger is some guage to mental health. Wrong, wrong, wrong! Anger at injustice is absolutely healthy. Slaves, suffragettes, minorities, heck, even Jesus got angry! Using it properly can change the world and I would argue it may be the only thing that ever does.

    Keep up the good fight, Lorraine and Jane! You have recruited more to the cause than you'll ever know! xoxo

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  15. I think it is valid to compare adoptee rights to gay marriage because they are both civil rights. Funny thing is that adoptee rights have more support from most lawmakers and the general population but the press seems to ignore us. I do think most adoptees are apologetic house slaves. I don't care when you search or how your reunion goes but don't be complacent when the government is oppressing us. AdopteesWithOutLiberty.com

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  16. I see nothing but support for adoptee rights in this blog post. I think Lorraine mentioned not waiting until one's APs pass on because a significant portion of adoptees do just that. I don't think Lorraine was directing that at everyone but rather as a wake-up call for some who needed to hear it.

    I have reservations about gay marriage because of how it ties in with adoption. Certainly, many (most) gay couples will want to have a family. And since two men or two women cannot biologically create a child, the only options will be adoption or donor conceived. Either case will lead to an increase in the number of children who will be raised apart from from their biological relatives and heritage. And that's not something I can support.

    We're already gaga in this country over the faulty belief that "biology doesn't matter, love is what makes a family." I see gay rights along with the increasing power of the pro-life movement creating a perfect storm for a second BSE in the U.S.

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  17. Anonymous March 27, 2013 at 8:44 PM wrote "Anyhoo, I support gay marriage personally but most of the gay people I know do not and will never support adoptee rights. Most of them are looking to get one of them there adoptees of their own down the road. They don't want to hear about the product having rights. How absurd."

    I suppose it depends on who you know. I can think of at least five gay people I know in real life who fully support adoptee rights. Only one of them is an adoptive parent, and their child was already surrendered well before being adopted.

    I could be wrong but Anonymous March 27, 2013 at 6:35 PM sounds like a troll to me.

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  18. Yo Buck Wheat! People get so mad at me so often it is balm to read your comment. Anger is good when put to use to right a wrong.

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  19. Sadly, I am not a troll. I know several gay couples that have adopted (womb fresh every time). One of them goes so far as to say "Don't look at me, he doesn't have my DNA!" whenever his kid gets in trouble socially. The gay adopters I know personally as well as the ones I see on T.V. (Rosie) could not care less about adoptee rights.
    I find it ironic how quickly the oppressed become the opressors.
    And furthermore for Campbell. Most likely, your OBC will not contain your biodad's name regardless. My firstmom acknowledged my biodad but was not allowed to list him on my OBC. If she had, he would have had rights...and nobody wanted that. These are not state secrets we are talking about opening up here. It's just a birth certificate.

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  20. @Campbell:

    "It's true though, adoptees can't get no respect on this blog unless we're sucking up to you and Jane and spouting primal wound crap. Some things never change."

    And you are here because?

    @Mary:

    Your child's adopter said:

    "I adopted a child and that child's family became mine."

    Excuse me? That child's family did NOT become hers. She is in possession of a CHILD that is of another family. The family is not hers, not by a long shot.

    So she is threatened by what she reads here? Good. I for one could care less. Most adopters plan on closing down an adoption anyway, regardless of what they read on a blog titled First Mother Forum. The young vulnerable women reading... that is who I hope takes heed to these warnings. I hope many of them read your comment and realize just how entitled adopters are. So damn entitled, in fact that they think the child's entire natural family is now hers.

    Oh, how I love the internet and how it allows our voices to be heard. I also love how that means less women like the one who adopted your child will be adopting.

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  21. Anonymous March 28, 2013 at 12:22 PM wrote, "The gay adopters I know personally as well as the oones I see on T.V. (Rosie) could not care less about adoptee rights."
    I guess we move in different circles then.

    "I find it ironic how quickly the oppressed become the opressors".
    Ironic indeed.

    " I know several gay couples that have adopted (womb fresh every time)."
    Oh, I thought from what you had previously written, "most of the gay people I know do not and will never support adoptee rights. Most of them are looking to get one of them there adoptees of their own down the road", you were talking, not about people who had already adopted but about those who were planning and scheming to do so.

    "And furthermore for Campbell. Most likely, your OBC will not contain your biodad's name regardless."
    Can't know for sure, but it is doubtful this is news to Campbell. My child's OBC didn't contain biodad's name either. He was unable to be at the registration so his name could not be included on the birth certificate. But now our adult child knows who we both are, and is in touch with both of us.

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  22. Here is another take by an adoptee on how damaging the infighting and Either/or stance on adoption is:
    http://harlowmonkey.typepad.com/harlows_monkey/2013/03/eitherorbothand.html

    to anon 3/27 6:35 PM who wrote:"Sorry to say, but gays are crazy while first mothers and adoptees are not."
    Your raging homophobia is showing.Sad to see it here.

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  23. We can't generalize about how gays feel about adoption any more than we can generalize about any other group. I know gay birth parents and adoptees who support adoptee rights. I know gays who worked for passage of Measure 58 in Oregon which gave adoptees the right to access their own birth certificates.

    Like the general public, some gays may think of adoption as saving a child, others as a way to form a family without regard to the birth parents, others are highly sensitive to issues that birth parents and adoptees may confront. Many other views as well.

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  24. Maryanne wrote in response to the anon who wrote that gays are crazy while first mothers and adoptees are not, "Your raging homophobia is showing.Sad to see it here."
    Right on, Maryanne. It is sad. Shocking too.

    Seems like Anon thinks "first mothers and adoptees" can never be or do wrong. I guess this person feels they have earned a "get out of jail free card" when it comes to stigmatizing and stereotyping others.

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  25. Jane,

    My experience with some people that are gay that they want to create a family like everyone else...granted..understand that BUT...the only way they feel comfortable with it is if they use either a donor egg or donor sperm and its usually anonymous. Their goal is to build a family...sound familiar? I Know that most gay people can be wonderful, loving parents..thats not the point. the point is again...the child. In order for these folks to become parents they either have to adopt, or use donor sperm or eggs. Thats what bothers me..again its the quest to "build a family" and o thought to the person that is allowing them to be a family...the child, person created. The child loses a mother or father, loses their genetic identity to make others happy. It HAS NOTHING to do with homophobia and everything to do with HUMAN RIGHTS...of the person created to make a family that is...not the adults that want a child.

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  26. Dpen, assisted reproductive technologies aside (to which many infertile heterosexual couples also turn in their quest to have children), many gay people adopt children who are are in need of family. Think of John Raible for instance, himself a transracial adoptee and a passionate advocate for children and for adoptee rights.
    I completely agree with Jane that we can't generalize about gays more than any other group.

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  27. Danny O'Donnell, Rosie's gay brother in the NY Assembly, is an avowed opponent of OBC access for adoptees, and has stated so to our lobby groups. He once said to another group that he and Rosie were afraid of the birth mothers of her children coming back and asking for money. To the group I was with, he was rude and condescending, making one adoptee cry and the other explode in anger. Yes, he is only one; and at least one other gay person in the legislature is very supportive. So they would seem to cancel one other out.

    Danny O'Donnell was one of the arm twisters getting the gay marriage bill through the NY legislature and shortly after married his long time companion. When Rosie was on the ABC Show, Who Do You Think You Are? and was obviously moved by being in the poor house in Ireland her forebears once were, I hoped for a shift of attitude. No such luck.

    I wholeheartedly support gay marriage, I live in a world with gay relatives and gay friends, I would like to see my nephew get married. But O'Donnell's reason for opposing OBC access is directly related to his (gay) sister adopting. And I think this is what dpen is talking about.

    Yes, all kinds of people--gay and straight--support adoptee rights; but this is one case where I see a gay sister (with several adopted children) lead directly to a force--her brother--opposing us in the NY legislature.
    The Orphan Trade, Gay Marriage and Open Records Legislation

    I have one friend whose gay daughter has had two children with unknown sperm. Did I feel comfortable asking her to sign the petition (see right sidebar on FMF) for adoptee rights? No, I did not. I wish I did, but I did not. I also did not send my email asking for signatures to the adoptive mother who insisted on calling my daughter, "Lorraine's birth daughter.

    Politics, like the rest of life, is personal.

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  28. I have no problem with "assistive reproductive technologies" with ANYONE . Be it gay or straight. I do have a problem with ANONYMOUS creation of children to "build a family" the lack of true thought on the impact of the person created is horrible. Its dismissed, minimized and thought to be know big deal. It IS a big deal. Just ask many adoptees, donor conceived that are living it as adults now.

    Now fully open information for a child that needs a family..whole different thing. But as in hetro adoption that is NOT a first choice.

    Lorraine..I know of one situation where a lesbian couple got married...thought it was great! Had Three children using anonymous sperm and got a divorce. These children remain very much loved and are all full sibs but are lacking their genetic information that is their RIGHT...HUMAN RIGHT to know where they came from. I am pretty sure MANY whether gay or not would fight me on that.

    The other things that bugs me..Is that many gay people CAN have their own with out all the anon stuff...just don't want to.

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  29. dpen wrote:"I do have a problem with ANONYMOUS creation of children to "build a family" the lack of true thought on the impact of the person created is horrible. Its dismissed, minimized and thought to be know big deal."

    These conversations can become so theoretical that people forget these are real individual human beings who are being created. Separate individuals with feelings and needs whose lives are being profoundly affected and in many cases damaged by these practices.

    And a common response when it is pointed out that these are not inanimate objects being created is "but children created this way are loved". But that's not enough and it misses the point.

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  30. Amen, Robin, those comments--the child is loved, ergo anything is permissible--totally misses the point.

    BTW, that odd reference in my comment above refers to an old post:

    The Orphan Trade, Gay Marriage and Open Records Legislation

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  31. There's a lot of double thinking going on right now. Obama and his goon squad suddenly promote gay marriage. It's all political kabuki. It makes them look "progressive" which they certainly are not. The truth is federal courts have already killed DOMA and there is no need for a SC review, but it looks nice on the elite prog resume (while seriously life endangering queer issues go unaddressed.)

    But the important factor that nobody is looking at is that gay marriage is soft social issue the deflects from what the Obama administration is up to in the Middle East(war, oil, guns, and wasting money on special interests that bankroll pols) and in Europe--bankster thefts. Think Cyprus. It's coming here soon enough

    And anonymous: those men in high heels could beat the crap out of you. Ever hear of the Stonewall Riots? Unfortuantely, when queer became gay and Gay, Inc co-opted the fight, the fight died.

    I think it's dangerous to compare gay marriage to adoptee rights. They are unrelated, and the more the federal government gets involved in any issue, the more mucked up it becomes.

    We have already won, but as usual, leggies need to catch up. If people would give one undivided clear message--the restoration of the right to unrestricted access--we'd have many more free states.

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  32. Campbell, for me another adoptee, you are a breath for fresh air! I love your comments and your take on things. Unfortunately, your opinions and posts seem to upset a lot of people who seem to think thinks are black and white.

    Viktoria, wow! "Yes, it is so complicated--that adoption stuff--that we should all shut up and say nothing." Huh? Where the heck did she EVER say that? Your reply was over the top and only serves to shut her down... simply because she sees things differently??

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  33. Robin, I agree the conversation becomes theoretical. I also agree that they believe that the love they feel is enough. It is not. For anyone to actually hear that tho' and wants to apply it to what they are doing it goes way beyond theory and becomes more like a child sticking their fingers in their ears and say ing 'I DON'T HEAR YOU, nowayyourwrongiamright" Because if they believe otherwise they may not be able to get what they want the way they want it. A blank slate child so they can be mommy or daddy and make a political point at the same time.

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  34. Excuseme, doesn't Campbell come here to poke us in the eye? Is her mother in the closet? And unlikely to lift her hand to sign a petition for adoptee access? Campbell is the typical mixed up adoptee who doesn't know what she wants.

    When she says Lorraine does a disservice to everyone else--as if Lorraine's reunion and life story is uncomplicated? Seriously you say this? Campbell doesn't care about working for change when she writes stuff like this--"when you ignore how complicated unwanted pregnancy, adoption and reunion really are, to tell us adoptees to stop waiting until our adoptive parents die." If everyone waits nothing will ever happen. Good luck there, girl.

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  35. Anon said asked if Campbells's mother is "in the closet"?
    Campbell's mother can't be completely in the closet or Campbell wouldn't have been able to say her mother is a nice lady and they get along quite well. For some more than others these things take time.
    It's great when mothers come out publicly, but that should be their decision and made within their time frame.
    Forcing people is wrong.

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  36. The impetus to grant homosexuals rights they did not otherwise enjoy was not accidental or random. Read AFTER THE BALL (Kirk - Madsen)... Adoptees and natural mothers would do well to adopt the same tactics.

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  37. In response to Lorraine's comment about Danny and Rosie O'Dopter, they disgust me beyond words.

    This big mouth can go to Ireland and know all about her roots, as documented, but speaks of the mothers who's children she is in possession of like they are trash who would "ask her for money". That is all she can muster up about the women who lost while she gained.

    Her precious "money" may dry up one day, just like her career has. She used a lot of that "money" to purchase children that were not hers from baby brokers, then dehumanize their mothers.

    Her brother is all for "gay rights" but thinks adoptee's have no rights to their OWN histories, generics and heritage? Disgusting hypocrite.

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  38. Who is Campbell anyway?

    I find her attitude towards her own mother and this blog confusing.
    Campbell's comment was just to tell Lorraine off once again and say, oh my it is so much more complicated than you know (because you know nothing). If she or lilome who is so cute knew anything about Lorraine you would know she understands just how complicated this is for everyone. Campbell Heinz didn't come here to make an intelligent comment, it is just to criticize and be a "breath of fresh air" for one of her friends. Frankly, my dears, we just don't give a damn.

    And what is so wrong with being compared to her natural mother? Most of the mothers who come here if they have a relationship with their daughters love to find similarities. If that comment was an insult, it's in the eye of beholder.

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  39. Campbell has been around for years. I'd ask what has "anonymous" done. Can't post your own name, huh? Are you afraid?

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  40. Viktoria, Lorraine wrote "Now we need adoptees to step out of the sidelines, to stop waiting until their adoptive parents die, to come out and say now: I WANT TO KNOW MY TRUE HERITAGE" , followed by this ". . . now we need every first mother who ever thinks about her baby to come out of the shadows and say: We do not want anonymity. "
    Campbell responded "None of it is as simple as telling us adoptees to stop waiting for our adoptive parents to die before stepping out of the sidelines, as you put it."
    She didn't imply that Lorraine's situation was simple or that Lorraine "knows nothing". She was responding to Lorriane's instructing adoptees to "stop waiting until their parents die" - AS IF doing that is always going to be that simple for everybody. It seems to me that she felt that Lorriane was not taking into account the complexities of OTHER people's situations.

    "And what is so wrong with being compared to her natural mother? Most of the mothers who come here if they have a relationship with their daughters love to find similarities. If that comment was an insult, it's in the eye of beholder."
    Nice try, Viktoria, but it doesn't work. Context is all.
    Nobody reading your comment would be dumb enough to think you meant that remark as a compliment.

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  41. I'm so afraid that gay marriage will mean more adoption. Marriage means children, and gay couples cannot conceive naturally, so where will their children come from? And it's not PC to say anything against them. There are ads all over showing gay couples with children, saying how great they are as parents, because they really want the children, no accidental pregnancies.

    I'm afraid of another baby scoop. I don't want more children to grow up feeling the way I do.

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  42. I totally get what you are saying Lorraine. It reminds me of our good ol' NHS here in the UK paying for boob-jobs on young girls because they are psychologically damaged by having a small chest. I have often wondered what my GP would say if I consulted him with psychological damage of adoption separation. There seems to be more recognition and acceptance for having small boobs/women being socially pressured to look a certain way than there has ever been for adoption issues. I personally don't think adoptees do speak up enough, but I understand why. There's still something very dark and unique about adoption.

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  43. I see two competing strains; one, a call for all adoptees and natural mothers to come out of the closet and demand adoptee rights, and another opposite one that only people who fit a fairly narrow point of view are wanted and really welcome.

    What happens here when someone like Campbell, Kathleen, some adoptive moms. Liloleme ,me, many others who do support adoptee rights, but have different stories or different views on peripheral issues or are not sufficiently anti-adoption comment? Other commenters, not necessarily the moderators, do their best to shame them and drive them away. How much support do you think this gathers from the many who read here but do not comment?

    Not all mothers nor all adoptees feel the same way about their own situation. I suspect some have no interest in adoption reform at all. It is not just fear of their adoptive parents nor fear of exposure of mother's "shame" that keeps all silent.

    Further mocking, personal attacks, and alienating those with different views is not the way to win friends and supporters.

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  44. Relax, adoptomuss, there will not be another baby scoop. That was a unique confluence of factors that no longer exist. There are not the numbers of young women of childbearing age that us baby boomers had, there is not the complete lack of access to contraception and abortion for the unmarried that existed in our era, and there are more avenues on the internet for expectant mothers to get much more information than we ever could.

    It seems you oppose gay marriage because gays want to adopt. I think they should have the same chance, no more and no less, than straight people to adopt. I feel the laws on who can adopt and how need to be much more stringent, but that should apply to all, not just rule out gays and lesbians. Many gay people have already adopted without being legally married, so it is not really going to change that much.

    Yes, adoption laws need to change in many areas, and there are still too many young moms who should keep their kids being talked into surrender. A lot more needs to be done for family preservation in cases where the Mom just needs some sensible unbiased counseling and a little help and encouragement to get the tools she needs to raise her child. But this has nothing to do with gay rights or gay marriage.

    I do not want any mother to have to feel like I did either, or be pushed into a surrender she does not want, but I do not see opposing gay marriage as doing anything to achieve that goal.

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  45. JO wrote:"I personally don't think adoptees do speak up enough, but I understand why. There's still something very dark and unique about adoption."

    I agree with you, but what you have to understand is that what adoptees are supposed to think, and how we are supposed to feel about adoption, was decided for most of us before we were even born. There is very little support and often outright hostility towards those of us who say that adoption was not the perfect, seamless, trauma-free experience it was supposed to be. The therapeutic community, in the U.S. at least, by and large accepts the prevailing cultural belief that adoption is just another way to build a family.

    Even at blogs such as FMF and other family preservations blogs, there are regular snide comments directed towards "woundies" and those who agree with the primal wound theory. Perhaps, I was naive. I had hoped that these types of forums would be safe and supportive places for those of us who were badly hurt by adoption, but I often find that they are not.

    And I totally agree with what Adoptomuss wrote at 7:25am. It is naive to not think that gay marriage will lead to an increase in the demand for adoptable babies.

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  46. Marley: And Campbell has done what other than "be around for years."

    I write to my legislators. Campbell has "been around."

    Campbell started the insults:
    "who is so inferior to all you out of the closet bio mothers."
    and
    "It's true though, adoptees can't get no respect on this blog unless we're sucking up to you [Loraine] and Jane and spouting primal wound crap. Some things never change."

    That sounds to be like a slam against every adoptee who doesn't think being adopted is fine and came out of the process without being hurt by it, and a nasty jab at both Jane and Loraine.

    Primal wound crap? If I say I fell down and my leg hurts, but you fell down and your leg doesn't hurt, that makes me "full of crap?"

    Nice.

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  47. Nancy came up with Primal Wound THERAPY to explain her adopted daughter's problems. She has never said it is anything but a theory. Unfortunately, PW has been used by people who don't want to or can't take responsibly for their own lives and actions to blame adoption for their problems. Adoption may, of course, be the root of the problem, but nothing cures a problem like kicking some authority figure's ass to the curb.

    Therapy is the biggest enemy of adoptee rights today. I'll carry that farther. It is the biggest enemy of any kind of social change in the country today. As long as you look at your problem as "individual" or "personal" rather than systemic rot, nothing much will change. Gay marriage wouldn't be the stupid issue it's become if therapists had kept their fingers out of queers heads and tried to make them fit in. Same with womyn. Amerikkans are a very stupid. I swear, anybody born after 1970 sucks off the state and its agents.

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  48. @Robin:

    "Perhaps, I was naive. I had hoped that these types of forums would be safe and supportive places for those of us who were badly hurt by adoption, but I often find that they are not."

    That is what I have found. They are full of landmines where you have to dodge the, "you are only the birth mother", "suck it up", "you made your bed now lie in it", "get therapy", "should have kept your legs closed", "you are not my mother", "your child is so much better off without you and/ we think we are so much better than you", (the list goes on and on) comments that have shut me down.

    I have put up with enough mental abuse/ mental torture from the adoption industry and those who fuel them. No more.

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  49. "Campbell started the insults. " Who is so inferior to all you out of the closet bio mothers"".

    Obviously that was a reaction to Lorraine's statement that in-the-closet men and women stay hidden "simply" to spare themselves "embarrassment". I understand why some might feel insulted by that. No doubt it wasn't intended to be, but it does seem rather condescending and dismissive.

    Is more shaming really a good way to encourage people who are still in the process of grappling with fear and/or shame to come out of the closet?

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